Travis Bean Guitars - Unofficial Guitar Resource - Header




» Home
» About
» Blog
» Donate
» Database
» Videos
» Market
» Classifieds
» FAQ
» History
» Photo Gallery
» Repair
» Join
» FaceBook



» Join
» Login



» General Discussion
» Beans For Sale
» Mods/Repairs
» Website Discussion
» Forum Rules




»  Bottom Bracket
»  Jack's Mannequin
»  Television
»  Made In Mexico
»  Shellac
»  View All Bands

TravisBeanGuitars.com
Privacy Policy
Terms & Conditions
© 2001 - 2021


  Rattlesnake Cable Company - High Quality Instrument Cables - Made in Montana
Forum :: General Discussion

Due to abuse - forum is closed and in archive mode only

User Complaints

  Return to forum index
 Author  Message
admin

Joined:
01 Jun 2001
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: 08/13/2008 at 4:11 PM    Post subject: User Complaints link

Hello All

Over the last year, I've been receiving complaints from various users about other users of the site. Some are complaints of fraud, some are general whining about another, usually based on jealousy. Some of have been complaints of professionalism when it comes to collecting, buying or trading. Some have been related to misrepresentation of instrument condition, rarity or values, etc.

All the complaints directed to me have a common theme. Why do I allow them to continue their activity on the site. Now, the complaints centered around jealousy are easy. That's just plain whining, and usually the person is not doing anything worthy of any 'action' from me or the site.

Now in relation with the other issues. These are significant, but unfortunately they are all hear-say and circumstantial from my point of view. I don't feel it's my 'right' to ban someone based on the experience of other parties.. and especially if I only hear one side. And frankly I'm not a judge or off-site moderator, and want little to do with that. With that said, I do want to provide a environment where fraud is kept to a minimum.

Now, how to do that while maintaining the forum rules? I was contemplating a 'complaints' board which would be open to finger pointing and the ability to respond to accusations. But going down that path would surely lead to a ugly and negative cesspool. The issue is to identify 'shady' behaviour but in a manner where we don't expose personal information (as to not break the existing forum rules) but going that route, I don't see the benefit since they will be somewhat protected.

Going with banning leads to problems since people could, and have been, falsely accused of inappropriate behaviour in the past. Whatever rule or policy that is applied needs to be applied equally across all members. It's so easy to apply a double standard, and I see it constantly in complaint emails to me. Remember, you could just as easily be accused of inappropriate behaviour, and if the same rule applied, you would be banned too. Often people don't, or actually, won't look at it this way.

Also, they could potentially contribute to the site again down the road, or use another user as a proxy for their dealings in the future.

I personally think that we can focus on prevention and learn what to watch out for. Some of the seasoned collectors, buyers and sellers could point out some shady common tactics and educate the less-educated on the matter.

Curious about your thoughts. Thanks for contributing to this discussion.

admin

Back to top

View Member Profile

Disclosure: Any links to eBay or Amazon.com are affiliate links. Affiliate links may provide commission payments to the site based on purchases.

000000

Joined:
03 May 2007
Posts: 324
PostPosted: 08/13/2008 at 9:29 PM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

-Post removed by request of the author-

Back to top

View Member Profile

admin

Joined:
01 Jun 2001
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: 08/13/2008 at 11:34 PM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

VG: You are the administrator and your request for input may be part of the unstable nature of this site. I would prefer a stronger voice from you and do not think debate here is productive.

Well, I would prefer a community voice to dictate the actions of the board. I would also say, along with me.. you could be partially responsible to the unstable nature of this site as well. On the debate, I believe it is productive. It might not seem productive now, but the results will show eventually.

VG: You refuse to allow anyone to mention names when they speak about private dealings if they mention names you erase the post. Mentioning names of members in any critical regard is forbidden regardless of any documentation of events. That view may have made it impossible for members to share caution, and experiences in regards to fraud. A particular member here has so blatantly exposed his fraudulent side several times on the board and yet you have chosen to take a passive roll regarding his status. You have been pointed to offenders using false accounts and or multiple accounts and yet you remain passive.


You have pointed out these individuals. So, based on that, I should have removed users? Likewise, I've heard many complaints and kept you here as well. Should I have listened to them? I have variety of measures in place to determine multiple accounts from a single user and work with evidence vs. assumption... or worse, other people's assumptions. Also, it was your style of attacking in previous postings that prompted the ruling of no personal information being posted, and as a community we agreed that 'Personal information' was out. http://www.travisbeanguit.....fuseaction/forum.view.htm

VG: You speak of the glory days being when things were cheaper as if there is real glory in that. Calling attention to a guitar through a dedicated forum will naturally bring attention and thus bring interest. Interest will bring potential buyers and trading will increase. SO WHAT. If you are so attached to the glory days of Beans being overlooked, undervalued and abused then maybe starting the site was a bad idea. Forums dedicated to other high profile brands do fine with a stronger administration voice and I don't mean preventing folks from trading amongst themselves. You have put all your control energy into making it difficult for members to make deals together and discuss those experiences. No one I have paid top dollar to for their guitar seems to be crying and yet criminals lurk this board and use it for fraudulent purpose but you feel they should not be called out or ousted.

You are putting words in my mouth. I do not talk about the "glory days". But if I did, the "glory days" would be when people were polite and helpful on the board. I wouldn't be referring to when Beans were "cheaper". I believe that Beans are worth every penny they fetch. They are worth what someone is willing to pay for them. On the trading topic, you mention trading amongst yourselves, that's fine, and nothing is to stop you from doing that, just as long as you follow the rules or contact people off list for buy offers. Sell offers are allowed on the board.

VG: Every difficult issue here does not need to be up for a debate but instead is simply a chance for you to show leadership. If you are so uncomfortable making strong decisions than I suggest you appoint a moderator for the task. I would welcome that job. You mentioned you would not tolerate personal attacks any further and yet I have read several since your request and the members throwing mud are still present. I suggest you stand by your views in a real way and stop reaching out for input as it only creates a weaker more compromised view. Debate has its place but maybe not in the way you reach out for it here.

Actually, I put up difficult issues here as a courtesy to the community to create a discussion to hear other opinions. This gives a opportunity for people, like yourself to speak out and to show that I value opinions and would like to hear feedback and suggestions. If I wanted to rule with a iron first there would be many present users or posts that would be gone now. I'll repeat this sentence... If I wanted to rule with a iron first there would be many present users or posts that would be gone now.

Thanks for the offering to moderate the forum, but I'll pass. I do have others that are actively involved with moderation (that would be inaccurate assumption that I do all the moderation).

Again, we are faced with personal attacks. What defines them? Do you define them? I mentioned the double standard, and you are quite guilty of that. Is tone and sarcasm personal attacks? Just as you feel some posts are inappropriate and attacking, others have felt the same with yours. I do believe I stand firm when a post crosses the line.

I do stand up for my views WHILE reaching out for input. I don't believe it creates a weaker or "compromised" view. And if this is not the place for you (because of ALL the points you mentioned above), you are more than free to go your own way.

Sorry to continue showing weak leadership.. but what do others have to say?

admin

Back to top

View Member Profile

frankNbeans

Joined:
18 Jul 2008
Posts: 12
PostPosted: 08/14/2008 at 12:35 AM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

The negativity on this site has turned people off to these guitars. They are impossible to trade with out a few jealous collectors mucking things up. Who cares if you stay Anonymous or even have multiple accounts. This is supposed to be a relaxed fun site. If you are offering things up for sale and have an interested party then you should represent yourself honestly, get off the forum and onto the phone and get the deal done. I used to use a different handle on this site until I got actual threatening emails from users. I was just having the kind of fun that is expected on a forum. Handing out your private information on a public forum leads to identity theft, exposes you to people who may want to steal your collection, and all kinds of ugly things. If the admin does not take down personal info he could be held liable. You should not be made out to be a crook because you want your privacy!! Also if you have any sort of celebrity and you expose yourself it opens you up to "price raping". There is nothing dishonest about acting poor when you want to buy a guitar from someone. It is just business. There is nothing wrong with sending your assistant to buy or sell a guitar for you to protect your identity and your wallet. A wedge sold at Gruhn guitars in Nashville in 2007 for 6K. I wonder why the price of that ugly boat paddle has shot up so much? I feel that the Admin does a great job and we all owe him about $100 bucks for all the fun we have had in the past, but currently this site and bean collecting in general is not appealing to me any more.

Back to top

View Member Profile

000000

Joined:
03 May 2007
Posts: 324
PostPosted: 08/14/2008 at 2:23 AM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

-Post removed by request of the author-

Back to top

View Member Profile

admin

Joined:
01 Jun 2001
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: 08/14/2008 at 7:18 AM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

Admin "Well, I would prefer a community voice to dictate the actions of the board. I would also say, along with me you could be partially responsible to the unstable nature of this site as well. "

VG: Can you be more specific please?

Actually, you just answered that within your response later. "Eventually I responded and I regret engaging with that energy." Those past responses are what I would be referring to. Those early threads by you and others have led us down the path we're currently on.

Admin "Also, it was your style of attacking in previous postings that prompted the ruling of no personal information being posted, and as a community we agreed that 'Personal information' was out."

VG: Long before I said anything aggressive there were numerous personal attacks made against me that were left on the site. Eventually I responded and I regret engaging with that energy. However calling it "My Style" is rude, as well it implies I was solely responsible or some kind of leader of that force. In any case personal attacks are still made and those members remain members. Your policy is still unclear

It is unclear since personal attacks are hard to define. To be specific, you are the ONLY one to ever post people's personal information on this board as a direct attack on others, and requesting others to reveal their information publicly on this board. I apologize if you feel that was rude, but it's the fact.

Admin "Likewise, I've heard many complaints and kept you here as well"

VG: I am not a dealer nor do I make a living selling guitars. The folks I have purchased from seem happy with the prices I have paid and many of them remain in friendly contact. I do not know what complaints about me you are referring too but I would be open to listen if you felt I was behaving poorly and could gain insight. You have never reached out and asked me to consider my actions and offered a view.

The complaints are not related to deals. They're related to behaviour. See the first quote at the top... and the second quote. Both are a few of the examples of where I received complaints. I would have to say the last statement is inaccurate. We have spoke many times via private email about policy, and I've tried to explain and justify my actions in a respectable manner.

Admin "Actually, I put up difficult issues here as a courtesy to the community to create a discussion to hear other opinions. This gives a opportunity for people, like yourself to speak out and to show that I value opinions and would like to hear feedback and suggestions"

VG: Oh really? Why so you could criticize my opinion line by line and then invite me to leave the group and go my own way.

Let's put this into an order so it's clear. I was faced with a difficult issue. I then posted that issue to see what discussion was brought up. You replied with you post questioning my "leadership", adding inaccurate statements about my intent, etc. I personally, felt this was an attack. Based on my unclear policy, you could have been banned right there. But as usual, I try to explain and justify my actions. I tried to answer all of your points. You say I "criticize" your opinion. If you follow the thread, you're the one with the initial criticm, and I'm just reponding to your statements.

Or repeat over and over in a threatening way that you could remove many present users. You're the boss, if you want to remove me as a member here you have that right

Well, I only repeated it one time. I just want to make it clear that being here is a privilege and not a right. If you don't like how things are going, you can leave.

admin

Back to top

View Member Profile

Disclosure: Any links to eBay or Amazon.com are affiliate links. Affiliate links may provide commission payments to the site based on purchases.

BoulderBean

Joined:
04 Feb 2004
Posts: 309
PostPosted: 08/14/2008 at 12:09 PM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

Hoo boy, where to start?

First of all I appreciate that our Admin comes to the users of the site to ask for opinions. This is not "weak leadership" it is smart leadership that builds consensus and invites people to engage. Suggesting that our Admin is yearning for the "glory days" is inaccurate IMHO. In some ways any appreciation or obsession with an instrument made 30 years ago inherently is a yearning for the glory days - something we could all be accused of.

It's nice to know that Vincent is working hard to expose all of the fraud and abuse occurring in the Travis Bean marketplace, but I don't believe our Admin should ban users based on the complaints of one person or hearsay. I have no reason to doubt Vincent's portrayal, but I'm not sure the reports of one user against another are actionable with banning from the site. All of these problems relate to the sale of instruments. To the extent the site moves away from being a marketplace I believe these problems will diminish - though not entirely. It seems to me we have been largely successful in this.

That said, I do think Vincent and others should be encouraged to expose scams, fraud, BS, etc. related to the sale of Beans on the forum. I surely want to know about this activity should I try and buy another Bean. The question in my mind is, "can they name names"? Our Admin has come down of the side of not permitting this type of personal accusation. I understand this decision and I think it is defensible.

Vincent Gallo as a moderator for the Bean site would surely make for interesting reading. I think we're fortunate to have a thoughtful (and tech savvy) Admin who has done a marvelous job with this site for quite a while. I hope he continues this role into the future.

A little check-in with the site users is a fine thing and not a sign of weakness. Who the hell wants a little Mussolini running the Travis Bean site anyway?

Cheers Beaners,

Peter

Back to top

View Member Profile

000000

Joined:
03 May 2007
Posts: 324
PostPosted: 08/14/2008 at 3:01 PM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

-Post removed by request of the author-

Back to top

View Member Profile

BoulderBean

Joined:
04 Feb 2004
Posts: 309
PostPosted: 08/14/2008 at 3:27 PM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

VG wrote: "I simply wish he would let everyone express their views within polite range regardless of their experience and speak openly of those experiences."

This seems reasonable to me. I'm all for the free exchange of polite views. The only sticky point is the naming of names. On-line communities for better or worse exist with a veneer of anonymity. I think it is up to the Admin to decide how this issue will be handled on the web site. I agree he seems somewhat torn on how to proceed.

Vincent - you certainly do have a lot of experience examining instruments and determining if they are in original condition, or whatever. I've learned a lot from some of your posts. But didn't I read that you bought a black standard(?) that purported to be original but then turned out to be a re-finish? You probably didn't get a chance to examine the guitar before you bought it, but this tells me that even the most experienced buyer can run into mis-represented items and unscrupulous sellers.

As a life-long anti-fascist, Mussolini is and always will be a villain in my book. I've spent time in Italy (including this summer) and I'm familiar with some of his accomplishments. I'm also familiar with a number of his unforgivable sins not the least of which was siding with Hitler in 1940 and consequently aiding in the murder of a good part of my family. I don't think I'll ever be "enlightened" on this subject.

Back to top

View Member Profile

admin

Joined:
01 Jun 2001
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: 08/14/2008 at 3:47 PM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

VG: I do not feel the administrator needs to follow my word on who is or is not trustworthy though he implies so.
This is what I don't understand... you say this here, but your first post states the following?
VG: A particular member here has so blatantly exposed his fraudulent side several times on the board and yet you have chosen to take a passive roll regarding his status. You have been pointed to offenders using false accounts and or multiple accounts and yet you remain passive. There was a recent thread that exposed a member who was using multiple names and posing from another State than he lives and yet that entire thread is still up.
So you're saying that I don't need to follow your word, but the first post states that I'm passive for not doing anything based on you pointing out offenders?
VG: It prevents accountability and does not reward those who are trustworthy.
This is where I think the forum is drifting in a wrong direction. Why should this forum be a vehicle to hold people accountable, or reward trustworthy individuals? This forum was designed to be a communication area about Beans or where Bean fans could just talk. Granted buying and selling Beans is talking about Beans, but it appears that a majority of problem posts or threads, if not all are related to buying or selling. This comes down to jealousy, finger pointing, or muffed deals, etc.

The real problem with call out, is it's two-fold. One person announces that one is a problem. The other will view that as an attack which leads to two things. Either the post is removed entirely, since they feel that the original poster violated the rules by attacking or accusing something, or the thread becomes a flame-fest, which would end in the thread removed again.

BoulderBean: This seems reasonable to me. I'm all for the free exchange of polite views. The only sticky point is the naming of names. On-line communities for better or worse exist with a veneer of anonymity. I think it is up to the Admin to decide how this issue will be handled on the web site. I agree he seems somewhat torn on how to proceed.
Polite views are the goal, but in reality I think it will be hard to define. I've already been exposed to this, since the rule change a few months ago, I constantly get emails referring to 'tone', perceived 'sarcasm', etc. Which muddies it even further if this is 'polite' or not.

admin

Back to top

View Member Profile

BoulderBean

Joined:
04 Feb 2004
Posts: 309
PostPosted: 08/14/2008 at 3:52 PM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

We've carved out a challenging course for the site. Eliminating any post that could be perceived as "sarcastic" would really reduce participation. Hell, most of my posts would have to be deleted.

I think it is up to the Admin to police the site and exercise his best judgment. Participants on the site should follow the rules and should also try and thicken their skins a little. Some give and take now and then makes for a lively and entertaining site.

Back to top

View Member Profile

Disclosure: Any links to eBay or Amazon.com are affiliate links. Affiliate links may provide commission payments to the site based on purchases.

admin

Joined:
01 Jun 2001
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: 08/14/2008 at 4:14 PM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

Thanks BoulderBean. The 'sarcasm' issue relating to 'personal attacks' is one thing and is manageable (simply I'll remove or NOT remove posts as I see fit), I also want to add that sometimes I've been notified that a post violates the rules, which would have been deleted, but I or the moderators are not up 24/7 watching the board every ms, so if there is a problem post that obviously needs to be taken down, it might not happen right away (especially during sleeping hours). So please, no one email me at 3AM asking why this post was 'allowed'.

But the issue of 'problem' users is another sticky mess all together, and the reason for this initial thread. Specifically, problem users that are a problem off site and not necessarily on the web site. Meaning, that they've been accused of fraudulent or misappropriate 'bean' behaviour, but have not broken any site rules and behave appropriately in the forum.

I'm still wondering about a complaints board or 'rep' board, where a person can issue a complaint (along as it was not abusive and did not divulge personal information - phone, real name, address, etc.. you know.. the usual) to a site user. Then the site user could respond once, and then the thread is locked. Both parties would be heard and be publicly viewable (or possibly member only viewable). The restraints of 'attacks' would be loosened since the initial post is a attack, but the personal information, foul language would be forbidden. The complaint would have to be thorough and thought out. If a complaint is posted (ie: to another member but says.. 'he sucks') I'll remove the complaint. It has to be a strong complaint WITH evidence to back it up (while not breaking the rules). When a complaint is posted, the 'defendant' will be notified. Complaints will be permanent. I thought a 'rep' board would be better, then a person could write a positive review of a fellow member. We can associate 'rep' to user profiles throughout the forum.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

admin

Back to top

View Member Profile

chinesebookie

Joined:
11 Aug 2008
Posts: 31
PostPosted: 08/14/2008 at 4:23 PM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

I know I'm new here but you guys are missing something very obvious: it's the internet. If you don't like a forum you can stop posting or reading and start your own. If you post someone's personal information, expect them not be happy about it and possibly post yours.

You know, Mussolini probably would have forced you guys to donate your guitars so they could be melted down to make military vehicles among other things.



Back to top

View Member Profile

gtrshp

Joined:
01 Feb 2008
Posts: 21
PostPosted: 08/15/2008 at 11:58 AM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

do it like they used to in the 90's: create a forum called "flame" and let those who wish to blast/flame/insult each other in that forum. "General Discussion" "Mod/Repairs" "Flame"....

those not interested, or take it personally that some people are enjoying insulting each other (they must enjoy it somewhat if they engage in it...) DON'T HAVE TO READ THAT FORUM.

when a thread in "General Discussion" becomes a flame, someone posts "take this to FLAME"



Back to top

View Member Profile

000000

Joined:
03 May 2007
Posts: 324
PostPosted: 08/15/2008 at 3:56 PM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

-Post removed by request of the author-

Back to top

View Member Profile

admin

Joined:
01 Jun 2001
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: 08/17/2008 at 10:52 AM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

Hello All

I won't be making a 'flame' board. This will counter everything we've done, and the last thing I want to deal with is whining and complaining about posts in the 'flame' board. In regards to user complaints, if the user has not performed site violations no actions will be made to said user. What happens off site (eventhough it could be Bean related) is not the responsibility of this site. Buyers and sellers need to be aware and be careful when dealing with others, this is a given.

If you have a personal/professional issue with a member or an individual, start a blog/site and complain/post there to raise awareness or make public a issue/experience. Please do not post here, or contact me via email. I will NOT respond to any emails and related posts will be deleted.

admin

Back to top

View Member Profile

000000

Joined:
03 May 2007
Posts: 324
PostPosted: 08/17/2008 at 11:02 AM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

-Post removed by request of the author-

Back to top

View Member Profile

admin

Joined:
01 Jun 2001
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: 08/17/2008 at 12:07 PM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

The forum was open for many years without a problem. This was the case until bullying, jealousy, trading issues, personal attacks and the like started cropping up. Before going with a moderated board (and during the abusive post period), I would literally get 10x the complaints about the allowing freedom for abuses vs. the need to protect freedom of speech on the board. The decision was clear to go with moderated board.
VG: Plus as a community, if you we cannot share our experiences openly then the word community does not apply.
Community is defined by people sharing a common interest or environment. This "community" shares a common interest of Travis Bean instruments. I ask the "community" for suggestions and opinions as a courtesy to hear voices that frequent here. Some opinions I agree with, and some I do not. To allow the sharing of experiences openly does not define community, and if they do not break rules, individuals can share experiences all they want. This community will have rules and guidelines. I apologize that they seem "half-baked", but eventually as the site evolves, they will become well defined.

admin

Back to top

View Member Profile

holmes

Joined:
29 Feb 2008
Posts: 182
PostPosted: 08/20/2008 at 3:36 AM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

why do you keep deleting my posts? none of them have been offensive in anyway. its getting on my nerves.

Back to top

View Member Profile

humbuck

Joined:
05 Mar 2008
Posts: 65
PostPosted: 08/22/2008 at 12:56 PM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

Franknbeans, could you please contact me: guitars69 (Jetze) Thanks.

Back to top

View Member Profile

humbuck

Joined:
05 Mar 2008
Posts: 65
PostPosted: 08/24/2008 at 3:38 AM    Post subject: RE:User Complaints link

Sorry, guitars69@live.com

Back to top

View Member Profile

Save Up to $75 Instantly at MusiciansFriend.com
Due to abuse - forum is closed and in archive mode only

  Return to forum index