Travis Bean Guitars - Unofficial Guitar Resource - Header




» Home
» About
» Blog
» Donate
» Database
» Videos
» Market
» Classifieds
» FAQ
» History
» Photo Gallery
» Repair
» Join
» Contact
» MySpace
» FaceBook



» Join
» Login



» General Discussion
» Beans For Sale
» Mods/Repairs
» Website Discussion
» Forum Rules



»  RE:My Bean is for sale
    by ArnaudM
»  RE:My Bean is for sale
    by creek
»  RE:My Bean is for sale
    by ArnaudM
»  RE:Veleno information - help !
    by artwar
»  RE:Veleno information - help !
    by toby2



»  Men of Porn
»  Peach Pit
»  Shora
»  Redneck Manifesto
»  Harvey Milk
»  View All Bands

TravisBeanGuitars.com
Privacy Policy
Terms & Conditions
© 2001 - 2019


 
Forum :: General Discussion

Remember when Beans were fun...


  Return to forum index


 Author  Message
admin

Joined:
01 Jun 2001
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: 06/03/2008 at 9:13 PM    Post subject: Remember when Beans were fun... link

Do you all remember when the days of talking about Travis Beans was fun? When finding and sharing information gathered throughout the years to people that are diehard Bean fanatics or sharing a bit of intro history to someone that was just discovering the guitars and basses? Or encouraging someone when they thought owning a Bean would be impossible... when this was known as a "friendly" forum.

I remember when I started this forum there were constant discussions on repairs, values, sightings or tone/gear discussions. I'm sure that most of you that have been frequenting this forum over the years can surely remember these threads. Or how about the great investigative thread on Garcia's Bean a couple of summers ago? Great stuff. After running the board for over 7 years, I had to delete my first post a year and a half ago. I banned my first user 6 months ago. Now I can barely go a week without deleting posts or threads.

What has happened? Why are we talking about showing our full names? Why do threads end up starting as questions then morphing into "I know more than you in the end" debates? Why are threads ending with insults and petty name calling? Why do I hear constant complaints of "bullying" and off-forum attacks, spawned from these various threads? Or posting other people's private information as a hostile act, just to name a handful of items that have brought this forum down.

Frankly, we're left with two options. Remove the forum altogether or start banning individual users that contribute, cause or add to the "ugliness". What are your thoughts? My finger is on the trigger, and something needs to change.

Hopefully, this thread will waken the silent majority.

admin

Also, I will not answer any emails regarding this thread. If you have something to contribute or opinion to express, do it here.

Back to top

View Member Profile

Disclosure: Any links to eBay or Amazon.com are affiliate links. Affiliate links may provide commission payments to the site based on purchases.

charlie

Joined:
06 Jan 2008
Posts: 250
PostPosted: 06/03/2008 at 10:37 PM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

Beans are still fun....Hang in there! It is getting tedious trying to wade through all the tirades and insults, but I think it will pass. I think hollywood will lose interest eventually. Not much purpose here if you can't use the forum as an advertising platform.



Back to top

View Member Profile

000000

Joined:
03 May 2007
Posts: 324
PostPosted: 06/03/2008 at 11:25 PM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

-Post removed by request of the author-

Back to top

View Member Profile

waystolive

Joined:
02 Jun 2008
Posts: 10
PostPosted: 06/03/2008 at 11:49 PM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

I agree that banning members or removing the forum isn't the way to go.
The forum should be a place where information is shared and opinions about these guitars expressed freely without fearing reprisal for a differing opinion.

I don't think the length of membership should determine your validity to post on this site, or the validity of the information you have to offer.
Just as owning more guitars than anyone else should.

I agree that a code of conduct should be explained and enforced.
Personal attacks, out,
Respecting others, in!

I love beans and any number of other guitars, I've never had issues like those I have come across on this forum anywhere else.
Something is awry unfortunately.

I don't have the answers, but I too remember the early days of this forum and well before it, probably like most of the members here. And wish we were free to express an opinion without being attacked unjustly.

Regards,
Daniel




Back to top

View Member Profile

000000

Joined:
03 May 2007
Posts: 324
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 12:06 AM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

-Post removed by request of the author-

Back to top

View Member Profile

admin

Joined:
01 Jun 2001
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 12:13 AM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

"exactly! insult Gallo again charley. real useful and productive. "

And this is productive.. or useful?

"The problem for me was that early on during some Gallo attacks I reached out to you for help but you explained this was an open forum and members were free to post whatever."

I wanted to keep an open forum, but seeing how we're here talking about this now, I don't recall saying "members were free to post whatever" giving a free license to attack. I would still like to keep an open forum, but a open forum does not necessarily mean "post what you want". If I was allowing this 'freedom', then why am I posting this thread? Or deleting threads on a weekly basis?

"I think the freedom to post whatever is not compromised with some guidelines towards manors and a system should be put in effect."

Guidelines towards manners? Is your post on the Veleno thread towards waystolive an example of manners? Or your first sentence in the last post? How do we want to define manners? I like the standard definition -- "ways of behaving with reference to polite standards; social comportment". If we use this as a guideline what would the system entail?

"One more thing, a lot of ugly posting comes from members who have just recently joined. It seems like it is too easy to join in under as many member names as you want. Limiting each person to one member name and membership will help as well as I traced one person to three forum membership names"

There are mechanisms in place now.
http://www.travisbeanguit.....fuseaction/forum.view.htm

admin

Back to top

View Member Profile

Disclosure: Any links to eBay or Amazon.com are affiliate links. Affiliate links may provide commission payments to the site based on purchases.

admin

Joined:
01 Jun 2001
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 12:43 AM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

Hello waystolive

"I agree that a code of conduct should be explained and enforced.
Personal attacks, out,
Respecting others, in!"

I like this, but unfortunately, it is much more difficult that it reads. For example, what defines a personal attack? We need to have a clear definition of this. Does abuse language only fall under this? Put downs and light insults full under this? Does exposing user personal information fall under this?

"Respecting others, in!".. that means not respecting others, out. So how do we define respect? Is sarcasm a lack of respect?

What happens when the guidelines are violated? How much do we tolerate? Remove posts automatically? Banning?

admin

Back to top

View Member Profile

waystolive

Joined:
02 Jun 2008
Posts: 10
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 1:09 AM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

Agreed, it is by no means a simple fix.

I definitely think revealing personal information is a clear breach,
and indeed fabricating personal information.
I also think there is no need for abusive language.
But I agree that too often the problem seems to stem from inuendo and insinuation.
My problems began with someone stating incorrect observations about my personal situation, knowledge and supposed affiliation with a guitar and not about my opinions expressed in my original post.

I understand the difficulties of monitoring such a site and I think for the most part people do largely behave themselves here and that is a credit to the site.

As I said I don't have the answers.

I am in favour of removing posts that breach a code of conduct, and banning members who subsequently breach such a code.

I think a certain amount of common sense is to be used, there is no way to define black and white what is allowable.

But I think when there is a complaint it should be investigated.

But this is entirely up to you and whether you are prepared to give this site that much work.
I am happy with the attention this matter has received from you,
and appreciate your efforts to help the situation.

If the site was un-monitored I would simply stop posting, it is not worth my time and effort to continually defend myself from personal slights.

I think for the most part people can see through the arguments, but it does interupt the flow of information when you have to wade through a thread of personal attacks.

Back to top

View Member Profile

charlie

Joined:
06 Jan 2008
Posts: 250
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 1:21 AM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

OK Vincent sorry for the underhanded comment, but it has seemed like your motivation for being here was primarily to buy more Beans and insult people who know less than you. To be fair, I have enjoyed many of your comments over the months, especially when you just share some insights or knowledge of the instruments. Even a smartass joke here and there has been fun, but the barrage of big offers and insults just eats away at any sense of community that a forum like this normally would have. I think maybe you take yourself a bit too seriously. So what if someone makes a dumb comment. You could be generous and just laugh it off. I guess there have been a couple nuts who have gone overboard in their attempts to poke you for a response, but they seem to have imploded and dropped off the forum. Of course now I'm wondering if they were all the same star struck knucklehead....hmmmm.

Back to top

View Member Profile

charlie

Joined:
06 Jan 2008
Posts: 250
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 1:40 AM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

Admin, as far as the forum rules go: It makes sense to me that you do whatever you want. If I was running this forum I would make the rules and feel free to enforce them or not at my own whim. I think allowing a certain amount of sparks to fly is good, but if I didn't like someone's post for any reason, I would just take it out with no explanation. This is your forum and we are your guests. Sounds like you deserve another beer.

Back to top

View Member Profile

Somnambulist

Joined:
27 Sep 2006
Posts: 21
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 8:03 AM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

I actually was about to send you an e-mail to this effect yesterday Admin. I love this forum and have used it both before and after acquiring my Bean but it's reached the point where I don't feel comfortable reading or participating. A lot of the abusive behavior started shortly after I got my Bean and signed up so every time I considered posting I thought better of it as I wanted to avoid the firestorms that seem to frequently get going over a simple question or statement.

Personally I think the golden rule could cover the code of conduct. At any rate I am glad to see this addressed.

Back to top

View Member Profile

Disclosure: Any links to eBay or Amazon.com are affiliate links. Affiliate links may provide commission payments to the site based on purchases.

admin

Joined:
01 Jun 2001
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 8:12 AM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

Hello Somnambulist

Thanks for posting. Unfortunately, I've received many emails like the one you were probably about to send. I want to get this forum back to the state when it was fun, productive and informative.

"Personally I think the golden rule could cover the code of conduct."

How would you define the 'golden rule'?

Thanks!
admin

Back to top

View Member Profile

Somnambulist

Joined:
27 Sep 2006
Posts: 21
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 8:23 AM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

To put it simply "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Treat people with at least a modicum of civility even if you don't like or agree with them and I am sure there will be less of a reason for them to act or overreact to what you say.

After a few years on the internet I am sure most people can agree there is nothing to be gained from a long and protracted flame war on an internet forum. Sleep on something that pisses you off before you reply or if you can't reply without being an ass then just don't reply. It makes it more pleasant for everyone and definitely changes the tone of things.


Back to top

View Member Profile

admin

Joined:
01 Jun 2001
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 8:41 AM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

Hello waystolive

Thanks for posting your thoughts there. They are very helpful.

Charlie, I think your point about removing posts is most likely the direction where we need to go. I often entertain emails asking 'why' a post is removed or NOT removed and should just leave it at that. If your posts are removed, the assumption of you violating the rules or the intent was to provoke users (trolling), should be made and left at that.

Guidelines should be used to determine those lines in the sand, but guidelines will have a difficult time interpreting sarcastic remarks or small 'slight' underhanded attacks. These will be left for me to decide. I think I'll add past user history and level of past productive forum contribution to help weigh those decisions.

Let me try to define these:

Past user history:
Meaning, if you're a known abuser (if I've deleted your posts, etc). Also, if your posts have been 'reported' in your past history, I might be more heavy handed in my decision to delete a post.

Level of past productive forum contribution: This does not mean how many posts you have. If you've contributed in the past in a 'helpful' manner vs. a user that posts only for personal gain, I might be more lenient in the 'grey' area of allowing the post.

If I leave a post (that falls in the grey area of manners or polite protocol), but the thread turns into a flame fest later, I'll remove the original post or thread that was left originally.

I think rewarding the good behavior is important. There are many posters that have never had a post deleted. There are many users that have contributed for YEARS without incident, and are not posting now. I want to encourage those users, but to do so, I need provide a safe platform for them to post their opinions.

I would also like to encourage users to use the 'report' button on the bottom right area of each post (must be logged in to view the button) and send a report and a reason why it's objectional or breaking the rules. This will NOT mean the post will necessarily be deleted, but will alert me to the specific post. I do try to read every new post, but this could expedite the process of administration and moderation for me.

I'm also leaning towards deleting posts vs editing posts. I often get asked to edit offending posts, but do not feel comfortable doing this, unless it's a matter of removing names, emails or phone numbers that were not intended to be there. This will be covered as 'abusive' posting (posting other peoples personal information without permission or the intent of harassing or attacking others).

Thanks!
admin


Back to top

View Member Profile

admin

Joined:
01 Jun 2001
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 8:42 AM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

Hello Somnambulist

"After a few years on the internet I am sure most people can agree there is nothing to be gained from a long and protracted flame war on an internet forum. Sleep on something that pisses you off before you reply or if you can't reply without being an ass then just don't reply. It makes it more pleasant for everyone and definitely changes the tone of things."

Well said.

admin

Back to top

View Member Profile

Somnambulist

Joined:
27 Sep 2006
Posts: 21
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 9:50 AM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

Admin ~

RE: Your last long post to waystolive and charlie:

I'd agree with deleting vs. editing of posts. Editing posts gets people more angry than simply deleting them. I've managed several forum communities of several hundred people over the last few years and I think it's a lot easier in terms of managing content and people to do it this way.

Another way to clearly set the expectations for what will and will not be tolerated that I think is handy is the Elitist Jerks style:

http://elitistjerks.com/f34/

They make a post for every user infraction so you get a clear idea of what will and will not be tolerated on their forums. I'm not sure if you have the ability to give suspensions, this looks like phpBB that's stripped down some so I think there are mods that will allow that, but a suspension will give a person some time to think about their conduct before they come back and start posting again and keeps you from having to turn people away permanently.

Alternatively you could conduct the infraction discussion in a private message or e-mail which I think would be a better decision based on the type of community it sounds like you're trying to encourage here.

At any rate I think what you've laid out in the previous posts in terms of what is acceptable and not and how infractions are more than fair but I think taking it a little further with suspensions, etc. can help you to get your point across without turning people away completely.

Back to top

View Member Profile

charlie

Joined:
06 Jan 2008
Posts: 250
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 11:13 AM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

I think Somnambulist makes good points, but it sounds like it might be too much hassle for admin. It seems to me that if you just delete the posts that are inflammatory, eventually the flaming poster gets tired of typing stuff without the satisfaction of getting a reaction. There is really no need to explain why you delete a post for ANY reason. I think most people know when they have stepped over the line and if they don't, too bad.

Back to top

View Member Profile

AlxT

Joined:
13 Jan 2008
Posts: 10
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 11:42 AM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

Admin,
unfortunutely all of the forums I read regularly seem to have the forementioned issues (the Digidesign ProFools Forum is actually much worse), however there is one forum (TapeOp) that I read regularly that seems to have a higher level of civility...

http://messageboard.tapeop.com/

http://tapeop.com/messageboard/postingrules.html

Contacting the TapeOp admin may be a good source for advice.

Thanks again for this great source of information!

Back to top

View Member Profile

admin

Joined:
01 Jun 2001
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 12:01 PM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

Thanks AlxT

TapeOp is a great magazine.. been a few years since I've read an issue, I need to get back on it. Absolutely great stuff there.

Email has been sent to the Board Admin, looking forward to their suggestions.
Thanks!
admin

Back to top

View Member Profile

1uncertain3

Joined:
02 Aug 2007
Posts: 77
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 12:03 PM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

What about a system where we, the users, can "flag" a post that seems abrasive or disrespectful. Once the post gets X about of flags, then the post is deleted and the person who wrote the post is banned for a week - or for a defined amount of time. If the user has a few or his/her posts flagged and deleted, then the user is banned for a year (or life); this is almost a self-running system where the community has say...



Back to top

View Member Profile

admin

Joined:
01 Jun 2001
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 12:04 PM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

Somnambulist

I like the idea of suspension as an additional option with banning. Anyone with recommended suspension times?

Thanks for the all the suggestions and support. It's very much appreciated.

Thanks!
admin

Back to top

View Member Profile

admin

Joined:
01 Jun 2001
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 12:09 PM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

Hello 1uncertain3

We basically already have this in place. The report link sends me an email stating a post has violated the rule and if the report is enforced, this increments a counter with the user. This has been in place since the beginning of the year but has not been fully utilized by forum members.

I would still want to review the reports, since making this a automatic system could lead to manipulating the system for malicious intent... if you know what I mean.

Thanks for the suggestion!
admin

Back to top

View Member Profile

BoulderBean

Joined:
04 Feb 2004
Posts: 303
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 12:17 PM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

I fully support the calls for civility and mutual respect. This web site is a tremendous resource and I don't want to see it disintegrate into a swamp of insults, bullying, and accusations.

At the same time, I believe in free speech and freedom of expression. I've certainly posted some colorful material recently in response to what I felt were some rather outrageous and offensive comments. Our Admin has done a great job of policing the forum over the past few months and I have a feeling that new policy on buying and selling posts may be helpful, but I have no doubt issues will emerge from time to time.

Ultimately it is up to us, the users of this forum, to make it the kind of place we want to spend time and energy.

Peace.

Peter

Back to top

View Member Profile

admin

Joined:
01 Jun 2001
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 12:24 PM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

BoulderBean

Thanks so much for your support!

admin

Back to top

View Member Profile

Somnambulist

Joined:
27 Sep 2006
Posts: 21
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 12:29 PM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

Most people I know run with 4-48 hour suspensions depending upon the severity of the infraction. Some other boards I read are largely self moderating with the infraction/reputation systems discussed above, but I don't know if we have enough lurkers/posters here to have a workable system like that. Obviously this opens things up to abuse and maliciousness from some people but with a large enough population so to speak you avoid these things.

Back to top

View Member Profile

ggates

Joined:
05 May 2006
Posts: 96
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 1:02 PM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

I think that while we are all deciding on which defense mechanism we should use to protect ourselves and this site from perceived bullies we are not addressing what is the 500lb gorilla in the room. This site has lost some of it's lustre in the past year as the value and scarcity of these guitars has risen at a very swift pace. These growing pains revolve mainly around the fact that Beans are headed for the collectible destiny for which they are long overdue and the prices are fast becoming out of reach for the casual player / Bean enthusiast. Some may blame super collectors, or even those of us who are lucky to own a just a few Beans for this escalation in prices and tensions. But poisonous rhetoric is just that, and bullshit should be called when someone behaves like a jackass.

GG

Back to top

View Member Profile

000000

Joined:
03 May 2007
Posts: 324
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 1:08 PM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

-Post removed by request of the author-

Back to top

View Member Profile

rlrlrl

Joined:
24 Dec 2007
Posts: 260
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 1:11 PM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

Well put Vincent. Actually, if we can all simply agree to that last paragraph that he just wrote, then we shouldn't need any further changes. Easier said than done, but let's just do it.

Back to top

View Member Profile

Somnambulist

Joined:
27 Sep 2006
Posts: 21
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 1:21 PM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

At the end of the day I think it would be in everyone's best interest to agree to at least try to be self policing and move past the personal attacks and insults that have gotten to be commonplace. This would make it much easier for everyone to get back to the important thing, discussing the guitars.

Whatever is decided I personally think whatever turns the least number of people away would be in the best interest for the community.

Back to top

View Member Profile

admin

Joined:
01 Jun 2001
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: 06/04/2008 at 1:29 PM    Post subject: RE:Remember when Beans were fun... link

Somnambulist

I agree. I think self-policing would be good, but we'll need to add some enforcements. I think the suggestions mentioned above will be a good start.. but hopefully will be a mute point if people just behave nicely.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I think we should continue the dialog, and if everyone can help move the community board into a nicer place.. that would be great.

admin

Back to top

View Member Profile

Save Up to $75 Instantly at MusiciansFriend.com

  Return to forum index