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New to the world of aluminum necks

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chinesebookie

Joined:
11 Aug 2008
Posts: 31
PostPosted: 08/11/2008 at 6:33 AM    Post subject: New to the world of aluminum necks link

Hello, all.

I've done a small amount of research on this guitar design that you guys seem to love and know so much about. It looks like the options for owning an aluminum neck guitar are the TB, Kramer, and EGC. Since these guitars are so scarce in comparison, it's been difficult for me to find one in a store or any studios I've been to since I've recently decided to look into them.

If you could suggest an a brand/model to someone who likes the louder (but still warm and complex) Jesus Lizard or Lee Renaldo tones but still, and more importantly, wants some a guitar that sounds great in a softer setting through a cleaner amp, which one would it be? Which one would do well with traveling and all that comes with touring? Which one can handle alternate tunings (nothing too drastic)? Which one really has that ring? Which has that warmth while maintaining a clear tone?

How would I go about trying an

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holmes

Joined:
29 Feb 2008
Posts: 182
PostPosted: 08/11/2008 at 6:41 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

500's sting and have the best clear, clean tone of any guitar that ive heard. sadly rather flimsy though in terms on construction.

artists, standards and wedges all share the same chasis and all have a fairly simarlar tone - big fat and aggressive whilst still clear. they have very loud pick ups. jesus lizard is a tb1000 with no effects going into a hiwatt. tough guitars.

egc's are much better than kramers. dont get a kramer they are rubbish in my opinion..


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TomWanderer

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Posts: 49
PostPosted: 08/11/2008 at 7:36 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Some people may not like the Kramer aluminum neck guitars, but many others love them. The main difference between a 76 to 79 Kramer and a TB is that a Kramer has a bolt on neck, not the revolutionary through body, bolt on pickup design of a TB. That aside, they are an incredible value (I purchased three in the past year, 2 450g's and a DMZ 2000, each for four to five hundred). In my opinion they play great, the original pickups are a bit dark, but the DMZ's are good and for what you pay for a Kramer you could stick anything you want in there. I have a DMZ 2000 with Gibson T Tops and it sounds wonderful. Every Kramer aluminum I have played has a very aggressive tone with great sustain and loud as hell. Not squeaky clean, but clean enough. I rarely run effects on mine, I usually just crank an old cheap tube amp and it sounds like powerful,stinging, meaty overdrive with no effects. They have all the quality Selmer electronics like a TB, many made out of similar woods as a TB and they are heavy, loud reliable guitars. At the rate things are going, I will probably never be able to afford a TB! For anyone in the same boat or who is interested in finding out what the hype is about with aluminum necks, I would highly recommend these Kramers as a great place to start.

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rlrlrl

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Posts: 260
PostPosted: 08/11/2008 at 9:48 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

not sure if Kramer's are "rubbish", but in terms of the intangible, Beans have the magic, and Kramers are just very good guitars. EGCs have their own kind of magic, which is different than, but perhaps equal to, Bean magic.

And Tom, in terms of value, Kramers have been getting surprisingly expensive these days. Still much less than those other guitars of course.

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chinesebookie

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Posts: 31
PostPosted: 08/11/2008 at 1:30 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

My initial post accidentally cut off. Thanks for the responses thus far. This forum IS a great resource with a variety of opinions and tastes.

Anyway, how would I go about trying an ECG in the Los Angeles area? I'll also be in the UK in through September, touring but I might have a day off.

thanks again

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TomWanderer

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Posts: 49
PostPosted: 08/11/2008 at 1:45 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

You should probably go to the website, electricalguitarcompany.com, and email Kevin directly under "contact". Of the few dealers there are, even fewer hold stock since these guitars are so kick ass and desirable. For instance, Rockhaus guitars in Milwaukee (where I live) is an excellent shop and a primary dealer and they haven't even had any in stock in a very long time. The ECG line is so popular and sell so quick I would say the best bet is to put your order in directly with the man himself, that seems the be the only way anyone is getting them lately. Good luck!

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TomWanderer

Joined:
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Posts: 49
PostPosted: 08/11/2008 at 1:47 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

By the way, if you look under Beans For Sale on this site, someone was trying to sell a ECG Standard not long ago. Not sure if it sold or not, but worth a try.

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rlrlrl

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Posts: 260
PostPosted: 08/11/2008 at 8:29 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Make N Music in Chicago usually has some in, but I believe they charge more than buying from Kevin directly. But there's no wait.

I'll have my new EGC Isotonag model at Spaceland on Aug 30th if you want to come check it out.

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chinesebookie

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PostPosted: 08/11/2008 at 8:39 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

rlrlrl,

Thats extremely kind of you. Unfortunately, I leave for tour on the 29th. I'm sure there must be a local that I can convince to left me hear/try an EGC. Be sure to post when you are playing LA again. Which group are you in?

thanks

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rlrlrl

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Posts: 260
PostPosted: 08/11/2008 at 8:56 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

love as laughter ...... you?

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chinesebookie

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PostPosted: 08/11/2008 at 10:51 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

I do have a group but we just started...no name yet...

Thanks again for the offer.

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000000

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Posts: 324
PostPosted: 08/12/2008 at 1:37 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

-Post removed by request of the author-

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000000

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Posts: 324
PostPosted: 08/12/2008 at 1:40 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

-Post removed by request of the author-

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holmes

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Posts: 182
PostPosted: 08/12/2008 at 7:06 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

nah.

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holmes

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Posts: 182
PostPosted: 08/12/2008 at 7:39 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

only joking, if your able too, you are more than welcome to come check my guitars out. ive got a couple of egcs, a small hand full of beans, thankfully no kramers and i live in london. it would be a pleasure. i also have a recently brought a couple of harmony bobkats which ive probably had more fun playing on the past week than any other guitar i own. i will ask for a spare ticket or two to your show though.

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chinesebookie

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Posts: 31
PostPosted: 08/12/2008 at 7:09 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Holmes, I'd certainly take you up on that offer but I think we will be driving into London like a bat out of hell just in time for the gig...which I still don't know where it is. i wouldn't have a proper amp to try it with anyway. Give me your info and I could still try to list you if I can.

Vincent Gallo,

What model do you have, or is it a custom guitar? Does it have humbuckers? I'm really partial to that sound.

Thanks again to all for the insight and thoughtfulness

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chinesebookie

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Posts: 31
PostPosted: 08/14/2008 at 12:34 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

I spoke with someone last night about EGC's and the guy who makes them. I'm certainly leaning towards one. Very eager to try one.

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BoulderBean

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Posts: 309
PostPosted: 08/14/2008 at 1:44 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

EGCs are great instruments and Kevin is a top notch guy to work with. If you want an aluminum neck guitar without breaking the bank, EGC is your best (and only?) option.

I have an EGC custom 500 and I'm really happy with it. I probably split my playing time 60/40 between my Bean 1000S and the EGC.

It does take a while for delivery once you order an EGC, so plan accordingly.

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chinesebookie

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PostPosted: 08/14/2008 at 1:51 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Thanks.

I was also informed that he makes Travis Bean-style humbuckers. Anyone heard them? The humbuckers in my other guitar are PAF copies, pretty good also. I'd prefer to keep with the style and sound of the original Bean idea. Often hybrids designs end up sounding strange or aren't as useful..you know like getting humbuckers in a Jazzmaster master or something...






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holmes

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PostPosted: 08/15/2008 at 3:51 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

boulderbean are sure? the only affordable option? maybe if you live the states but if you live in the uk kevins guitars cost almost double that of their american equivalants now - even when you take into consideration shipping and taxing etc which is covered in the price, its still about $600 extra than if you live in the states. doesnt seem fair to me. for the price of an egc you can get a goddamn bean if you live in europe. im lucky i got mine when it was just charged in dollars.

2350 euos = 3460 dollars.

doesnt quite work. a bog standard bean goes for that.

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BoulderBean

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PostPosted: 08/15/2008 at 11:07 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Holmes, you may be right. There is no affordable option for an aluminum neck guitar, especially if you live in Europe. In the US I believe you can still buy and EGC for less than what a Bean in decent condition will sell for.

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chinesebookie

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PostPosted: 08/15/2008 at 12:56 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Ok, at the risk of asking a somewhat loaded question, why are Travis Beans so expensive? It seems to me that a guitar that might not play as well as an updated version (EGC) and has no customer service or sure way of getting parts replaced would be much less expensive than the newer version.

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BoulderBean

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PostPosted: 08/15/2008 at 1:05 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Beans are simply the greatest electric guitars every made (IMHO). Only a few thousand were constructed. They were built with the highest level of quality out of the finest materials. It is a pleasure to play one and the sound.....well the recordings speak for themselves.

Beans are also expensive because they were/are a favorite ax of many a superstar including: Keith Richards, Jerry Garcia, Lee Renaldo, Steve Albini, Stanley Jordan, Slash, Bill Wyman, and many others.

Who needs a warranty when you've got a guitar built to last for your great great grandchildren to enjoy?

EGCs are fine guitars, but they are not the same as a Travis Bean.

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chinesebookie

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PostPosted: 08/15/2008 at 1:13 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Ask a question, get an answer. Thanks, boulder.

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Kevin

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Posts: 147
PostPosted: 08/16/2008 at 10:19 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Holmes, you are forgetting one thing, the USD was once worth quite a bit more than it currently is. When the prices were set the usd was worth around 1.18 to 1 euro. The money paid here is the same as paid there, but when laid out so simply as you have done it, without any concideration of the above information, it seems unfair. Also there are other fees involved that you are unaware of. Im unhappy with the amount of taxes invloved(21% fees and shipping), if you are going say whats fair, you should have all the facts first and take everything into concideration.

Heres the numbers:
2200.00 base
200.00(estimate) shipping import fees
462.00 taxes(21% VAT)
2862.00usd

2350.00 euros X 1.18usd= 2773.00 usd

If you are comparing 2 currencies and have them tied together, as yours increases in value, your price should go down, and as ours decreases our prices should go up. The two are not tied in this case, rather tied to the actual value in the home country, so the prices are the same and will remain that way. Example, one dollar here and one Euro there will still fetch the same goods regardless of the value of a Euro in the US and so on. Has the cost of a new Gibson Les Paul Custom went down over there, most likely not as its value is tied to the Euro not the USD, just as the value here is in usd and not tied to the Euro. If sales were direct then id understand, but since dealers are invloved the prices must be based in that countries money and standardized.

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holmes

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PostPosted: 08/17/2008 at 7:29 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

i live in england, we dont use the euro. our pound is worth nearly two dollars. anyway why should our prices go up because your dollar is doing so badly? for example do people on ebay, when they ship world wide, charge the winning amount in euros rather than dollars? no because that would be a rip. i pay the dollar amount that i won the item for, and regardless of how much lower its cost me in pounds/euros, the seller still gets the same amount of dollars that he would of got selling it in the states. if i won an item for say $1400 would i then let him charge me that amount in euros because he says he is going to cover my shipping and taxes? no id say that is bullshit because he is going to get more money.

lame example i know but the point im making is that you are making more money doing it this way that you would if you were just trying to charge in dollars, which is why you do it. to deny that you make more out of european buyers than stateside buyers i think would be a lie. if was paying in pounds the american price of 2230 it would cost me a lot less than the weird method that youve concocted of covering tax in the price - id cover the tax etc myself as i did with the first egc i bought and it would still work out cheaper than paying you 2230 in euros. MUCH cheaper.

i find it quite hard to take when you get so specific about certain things and then start chucking your assumed values for wildly varying attributes like import taxes, shipping etc and then carry on like its an exact science. its rediculous. anyway i dont want to get into a big row about this, ive dealt with you before, and its been a positive experience. but frankly it is massively unfair no matter how you dress it up and you are not explaining yourself very well with that post.

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rlrlrl

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Posts: 260
PostPosted: 08/17/2008 at 7:55 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Holmes - you can always buy an EGC from Make N Music or one of the other stores that carries them, and use your pounds, and then it will be like half price instead of double.

Everything's a trade-off: our economy's in the tank, so we can no longer buy things affordably from europe. And people in europe are buying american stuff on ebay like there's no tomorrow. you should be grateful, not pissed.

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chinesebookie

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PostPosted: 08/17/2008 at 1:59 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

I saw a GREAT band from New York, Zs, at a venue in downtown LA last night. the guitarist was using an EGC with the Dan Armstrong lucite body. He sounded so great. I have to try one!

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GregBailey

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Posts: 50
PostPosted: 08/17/2008 at 2:06 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

OK, I'm NOT throwing stones or anything, I'm just trying to explore more options on this subject. Someone in this thread wrote, "EGCs are great instruments and Kevin is a top notch guy to work with. If you want an aluminum neck guitar without breaking the bank, EGC is your best (and only?) option." This could be 100% true and I certainly don't want to hurt Kevin's business. I've never heard a negative word about him or his work, so believe me, I have ZERO problems with EGC instruments, etc. but I do know that there are other aluminum guitar makers who make great instruments and do it for decent prices. I know that Chris Fouke of Fouke Industrial guitars does a great job and he won't break your bank, unless something has changed recently. He doesn't make aluminum necks himself, but he does have access to them. Bastin Guitars in Kentucky makes some great looking instruments, but I don't know his pricing structure. I also know that Pete's Aluminum guitars makes some REALLY good looking stuff too and guess what? They are made in England. I also know of other good builders, but I'm not trying to do a commercial here, I just think that no one is the ONLY option. Again, maybe just my opinion.

Greg

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rlrlrl

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PostPosted: 08/17/2008 at 3:26 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

mr bookie -- the guitarist in Zs is my friend Ben. He's pretty amazing. He also has a new hardcore band called Cutter (real hardcore) which rules.... loudest band I've ever seen. I forget, do you live in NY? The lucite body is really cool.

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rlrlrl

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Posts: 260
PostPosted: 08/17/2008 at 3:26 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

pardon, I just reread your post and saw that you saw them in LA.... ignore the NY comment!

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chinesebookie

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PostPosted: 08/17/2008 at 3:29 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

I WISH I was back east sometimes.
I seem to remember hearing a group called Little Women with someone from Zs that was pretty cool. Same guy?



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rlrlrl

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PostPosted: 08/17/2008 at 6:49 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Yep, same guy. Little Women is awesome too. His Kramer broke on tour and he called me asking to buy my Bean (emergency!) and I recommended the EGCs, and he's never looked back. I believe that Kevin will make a lucite guitar if he gets a body or you give him one, but they're hard to source otherwise. And I'm pretty sure that the body on Ben's guitar is from a Greco (or other?) DA copy guitar, but still from the early 70s. Maybe I'm wrong. I think the black pickguard on it looks much cooler than the fake wood of the normal ones.

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BoulderBean

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PostPosted: 08/18/2008 at 3:40 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Greg Bailey - a fine guitar maker of custom aluminum neck instruments - raises a good point and lists a number of other manufacturers of metal neck guitars. I've heard of most of these luthiers, although I have never seen or played any of their instruments.

Chris Fouke - Industrial Guitars - these are aluminum guitars, but from his site they look to be exclusively lap steel instruments.

Bastin Guitars - this is a new company that has produced only a handful of instruments. What I have seen looks promising, but there is no production and no way for an average person to get one these guitars. This could be the next EGC type company.

Pete's Aluminum - a customer builder of aluminum and metal instruments in the UK. His stuff looks good (although quite different than a TB), I have no idea what it costs to get one. Given the value of the pound, it's hard to imagine these are even remotely affordable in the US.

For someone looking to buy an aluminum neck built in the tradition of Travis Bean and Veleno, it seems to me that EGC is the only company producing any quantity of these instruments in the US at this time. If I'm wrong on this please let me know. I try and keep track of the various builders of aluminum guitars. It has been a pleasure to watch the development of EGC and their line of instruments. It would be great to have more builders enter the fray.



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GregBailey

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PostPosted: 08/18/2008 at 5:32 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Hey,

You know, BoulderBean brings up some good points here. Kevin may be the only one making aluminum guitars in any real quantities. I know I've not made hundreds or thousands, but to tell you the truth, I'd be a little scared of trying to get too big. Look at the history of the aluminum guitar. Veleno, Travis Bean, Kramer...... They're not making them any more. I'm not sure aluminum guitars are for the masses. It's just my opinion, of course! I know for myself, at this point, I have to stay small to continue on. The good thing about being small, at least from the customer point of view, I can make a guitar exactly the way he/she wants it. If I start to make a lot of instruments, again speaking for myself, I'd never be able to handle requests for something outside of production. I know TB did, but here again, he's out of business now. For now, I just don't think the world is ready for an aluminum guitar company to get big. I think Travis Beans are great guitars, but let's face it, they almost faded away for the most part till the recent resurrection of the instruments interest. Good thing too!

So, we know that aluminum guitars are not readily available. They do take a long time to build, but then again, most guitars do. It's just hard to make a lot at once unless you have a lot of people working for you.

My point to all this? Simple. You may not be able to walk into a music store and find an aluminum guitar, but they are out there, you can get pretty much whatever you want and from what I'm hearing they're all pretty much worth waiting for. Some may be kind of expensive, but they are expensive to make.

One more point, Chris Fouke does do a lot of lap steels, but he also does a lot of regular guitars too. I have seen them on his site.

Have fun! Keep Plucking Metal!

Greg

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Seantseaton

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Posts: 8
PostPosted: 08/18/2008 at 5:46 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Don't forget those guys from new brutalism that are putting out the fireproof Tactical Works guitars! You can even use them as wheel risers to change your oil! Super thin, and super heavy. they make two different guitars and one bass model as far as I've seen. They are symmetrical in construction for all you ambidextrous guitar players, so you they can be either right or left handed! I know some of the models according to their myspace were collabs with EGC. nothing like a bean, more so a veleno I suppose but a guitar all in it's own. I'm pretty boosted about this company!

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Kevin

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PostPosted: 08/18/2008 at 6:13 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Everyone, please pardon this post as its to only clear up a previous one.

Holmes, Im going to try and lay this out as simple as possible, try and follow.

Whenever anyone, no matter what part of the world orders a guitar from the US, they are paying in USD and the USD prices. If overseas, there is shipping and taxes. So if someone today anywhere in the world was to order a Standard from the US, it will roughly run 2862.00 with shipping etc. If someone goes into a store in Europe and wants that guitar it will be 2350.00Euro, a price which is and was set buy the dealer, not myself. When the currencies were neck and neck, it worked out to almost the the exact same price, but since the difference in value now is pretty high, it does cost more in Europe right now as those prices are tied to the original standardized prices as stated in the previous post. Here it is spelled out:

3 years ago, a Standard in the US shipped to Europe with taxes etc was 2862.00usd
3 years ago, a Standard in Europe was 2350.00euro with taxes and shipping

Today a Standard in the US shipped to Europe is 2862.00
Today a Standard in Europe is 2350.00

If your following, you can see that the prices are the same and will remain that way. Since the Euro is so much higher now, theres nothing stopping anyone from taking advantage of that and ordering from the US. But to try and say,"today a Standard opened with a value of 2100.00euro and closed with a net gain of 75.00 euro" is stupid and completely unrealistic.

One day(hopefully soon) the Euro and dollar and should be back in the same range, clearing up this gap in cost. Perhaps one day the USD might be worth more and then Europe will be actually cheaper. This is the advantage of having pricing in 2 currencies as when one takes a dive you can get the same goods at a lower price with the higher valued currency, but that only works when ordering from the opposing country against the weaker valued currency with the higher one. Just to make sure youve got it, the prices for Europe are for buying a guitar from a Dealer in Europe, the prices for the US are for buying a guitar from either me or a Dealer in the US....regardless of were you are buying from.

Im sure your taking issue with this so Ill even go this far with it:

I had to buy a new magnometer recently. This tests magnetic gauss strength. I priced the tool out from the company I got my original from and the price is still the same as 5 years ago, 265.00 Euro. They now have dealers here in the US and the exact same meter, from the exact same company, just based in the US, is 255.00USD.

Did I go to a website and raise hell, or contact them and say your stupid I can get it cheaper and your making me pay more for it as I live in Europe?....No, I just bought the one from the US and saved a good bit of money. This gap, when the money levels out, will cease to exist, but until then, this was a better deal and Im glad to have gotten it.


Last, Im not making any more money, the European dealers are for the time being. I charge everything and everyone in USD. The dealers all pay me in USD the same flat rate no matter where they are located. You must realize too, this is not an Ebay auction but an legit buisness that functions all over the world. Just to make sure you understand this, if you buy from the US, wether that be Ebay or whatever, its USD, if you buy from Europe its Euros.

Your example of your original EGC was when the custom line only ran 1200.00usd? The line that replaced all the custom stuff, is now 2100.00usd.

You asked a specific question and I have given a specific answer.

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Kevin

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PostPosted: 08/18/2008 at 6:21 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Yes, there are many many great people making truly cool stuff. I started making things because I couldnt afford what I wanted, so Im a total fan boy.

The Tactical Works guitars are awesome and I feel really lucky to get to help them out. The Fouke guitars are really great too. Greg your stuff never ceases to amaze me either. Its a really great time to be into this as only a few short years ago there were no real options as far as variations etc. I still think Veleno and Bean are the Holy Duo, but just look at all the cool stuff that has came to follow, not to mention all the awesome music made by their creations.

I have yet to see Bastin or Petes stuff in person, but I get emails asking about them from time to time. It all looks really cool. I look forward to playing them.

So yes, Salute to everyone.

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GregBailey

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PostPosted: 08/18/2008 at 7:40 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Hey,

While we're all patting each other on the back, it made me think of an idea I had some time ago. I'm a huge fan of the band Queen. I have been lucky enough to attend one of the fan club conventions, it was a blast, they had a Queen tribute band there, video taped messages from the surviving band members, a Brian May guitar seminar and a swap meet. It was great. I was just wondering what it would be like to have a Travis Bean convention some time. I know, there would be the thing about WHERE would it be, etc, but wouldn't it be fun? Everyone could bring their Beans, meet other people from the forum. Maybe some of the people who don't get along too well here would make friends with each other there. Heck, maybe Travis Bean himself could either show up or do the video taped message thing. Don't forget the swap meet thing! Food for thought, but wouldn't it be great?

Greg

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Bastin

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PostPosted: 08/18/2008 at 8:24 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Hey, guys. I have to say that this is a very exciting time to be a fan of aluminum instruments. And this type of positive discourse only makes me more enthusiastic. I'm proud to be a part of it.

It's true that I have only made a handful of guitars, but I think Greg and I have similar attitudes about this. I would love to make hundreds of guitars per year, but if the demand suddenly required that level of production then I would have no practical way of meeting it. They are incredibly time consuming even under the best of circumstances. EGC have produced LOTS of guitars and LOTS of them have been highly customized. So hats off to Kevin; he is probably the craftiest of us all.

And I, like Kevin, started this project out of "need" for another aluminum guitar. I was once a TB owner. TBs are actually the whole reason that I even started playing guitar; I was always a bassist. But the unique nature of the aluminum sound / culture has been my main inspiration.

Tactial Works are badass guitars. Enough said. I live really close to Knoxville; I can't believe that I haven't gone down to see New Brutalism live yet.

The builders that have been mentioned, including me, make great instruments. And we're different enough to cover a wide variety of tastes in style and tone. So take you're pick. You won't be disappointed.

Also, don't forget about rema music (www.remamusic.com). The site doesn't have any hard-to-find info, but Oliver (proprietor) has very flattering photoshop skills.

I like Greg's idea about a convention. We're both in Kentucky and I'd be more than happy to have it at my place. Come one, come all.

Yours in rock,
Matt Bastin

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humbuck

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PostPosted: 08/19/2008 at 1:06 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Great Idea Greg, I'll come and fly over from europe.

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charlie

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PostPosted: 08/19/2008 at 11:26 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Anybody going to the Arlington Texas guitar show in October? Good place to see a bazillion other vintage guitars that are inferior to Travis Beans, but Bean recognition and appreciation is badly needed there.

Actually I think the best location for a Bean scene would be LA. That way some of the old employees might be persuaded to attend....wouldn't that be cool? How about a party at some bar near the old factory site?

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gtrshp

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PostPosted: 08/19/2008 at 8:50 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

do a one day convention in Atlanta. about equa-distant from Greg, Kevin, and the New Brutalism camp. there are a lot of cheap flights in and out of atlanta to all over. maybe Torche can do a show at a club later that night.


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holmes

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PostPosted: 08/20/2008 at 3:40 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

admin keeps deleting my posts in response to kevin. none of which are comments that shouldnt be said. im not sure why he keeps doing it.

but again 1900 for an electrical is not cool kevin. maybe you should have a word with these european dealers kevin - if they are the ones profiting? i thought egc was formed out of the fact that the cost of beans was so prohibitive. i wouldnt even spend that much on a bean. i dont think thats cool.

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Kevin

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PostPosted: 08/20/2008 at 4:29 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Holmes, what your missing is this: Have you gotten a raise since the US dollar has went down based soley on the fact that the USD has went down? A euro is still worth the same as it was before the dollar tanked over there. So yes they make a bit more( I mean only bit more) on the conversion of the actual cost of the instrument from me, but everything else that goes into the final price is the same. Their power bills didnt go down, their cost of shipping didnt go down, their taxes on the European side didnt go down, their cost of advertising didnt go down as all of this is tied to the Euro, not the USD. Only part of the price is based on the USD the rest is based on the Euro.

Curiously Tactical Works and Bastin sell through Rema Music at the same Euro prices as they have always have as well.

I honestly dont know of any better way to explain it, other than the way I have done. If you feel that its not worth it, then dont buy it.

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charlie

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PostPosted: 08/20/2008 at 10:04 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Kevin: No need to defend yourself on this. It makes perfect sense to anyone who understands the logistics of making a handmade product and selling it. Obviously you are not getting rich making your guitars. Anything handmade by one or even a few people is a very difficult and challenging enterprise to maintain. Travis Bean demonstrated this pretty clearly by not surviving as a viable business. I just hope you are making enough to justify staying in business and making guitars for appreciative players for many years to come. Unfortunately the businesses that seem to thrive and make the money nowadays are the ones that figure out how to have their stuff made in large quantities in China, etc.

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BoulderBean

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PostPosted: 08/20/2008 at 10:25 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Charlie is absolutely right. How much does a top of the line USA made Gibson Les Paul or Martin acoustic cost in the UK? A lot of lettuce. We're not talking about big production lots from Mexico or Korea here. EGC's are custom built, one at a time.

Holmes - I'm sure it is frustrating for folks in the UK and Europe when they are confronted with a high price for an EGC. But you make it seem like Kevin is intentionally trying to stick it to the international buyer. Kevin has been extremely forthcoming about his cost structure and it's clear he is being perfectly fair.

Sadly, aluminum guitar manufacturers do not have a good history of survival. I for one want to see EGC buck the trend and make a go of it.

Peter

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theNewTerritories

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PostPosted: 08/20/2008 at 8:25 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Hey Chinesebookie, it seems that I didn't set my watch for perfect timing. I just left Los Angeles for Oakland last week. I have had an EGC standard for sale for a while (craigslist and then a posting here at this website) before I left. It is still for sale- however, it is in storage in the San Fernando valley--- if you want to contact me about it and try to work something out, please let me know.
bintoerong@gmail.com
-Rogier

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theNewTerritories

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PostPosted: 08/20/2008 at 8:43 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Also just wanted to add a note about Karmers. I think that one can see a logical progression in certain aspects of the design following on from the Travis Bean legacy - and also getting around patents, hence the bolt-on, but wooden-slot filled neck which reduces the 'cold' feeling. Just a personal observation- the neck of a TB too cold? C'mon- don't be such a pussy. On the Kramer I must say I don't like their original bridge, I much prefer the string-through-body found on a TB, although the zero-fret on the Kramer is much appreciated. Also, the body profile is a little slimmer and I dare-say slightly more balanced for a comfortable playing position. (doesn't really matter much to me) What's nice about the Kramer pickups is that it is very easy to adjust the height, which is very valuable, but on the downside the Original Kramer pickups- to me- don't come near the TB pickups. I always used an EQ pedal to get the most out of my Kramer, it is loud, but I felt it needed some extra presence in the bass and mid-range areas. (not as loud as TB either) With the TB there is no need for the EQ at all. Overall I must say that I prefer the TB, I wish it had a zero-fret, but that's about it. Also the Kramer I am using now, 250g - I prefer the 1/4" jack coming out of the front face of the guitar rather than sticking out where it does on the TB- it doesn't matter, these are things one can live with. I just want to stand up for Karmers- I really like these guitars alot, they have their own sound and feeling and will not do what a TB does, it can come close with careful EQ- as for Kramer's with DMZ pickups- these are very loud pickups, louder than the Kramer original, but more removed than the originals in sounding reminiscent of a TB. Kramers with original pickups have a really unique and unmistakable sound- even my Wife who does not play guitars has picked this out and remarked on it- check out the slide guitar parts on a Godspeed you Black Emperor! recording- unmistakably Kramer.
Anyways, just wanted to stick up for Kramers. Hey man, a brunette and a redhead- ain't the same, but one isn't necessarily better than the other.

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rlrlrl

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PostPosted: 08/20/2008 at 9:39 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

I like the way you talk.

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000000

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PostPosted: 08/20/2008 at 11:06 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

-Post removed by request of the author-

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chinesebookie

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PostPosted: 08/20/2008 at 11:27 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

I played a Kramer once. It sucked.

I'm interested in an EGC. Anyone in LA want to let me play one? Vincent Gallo, still have it? Wait, this isn't actually Vincent Gallo is it? Whatever...what current recordings have EGCs on them?

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ggates

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PostPosted: 08/21/2008 at 6:48 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

A couple of the best examples of EGC's can be heard on Stella by Uzeda http://profile.myspace.co.....profile&friendid=85654092
and also Long Distance by Three Second Kiss http://profile.myspace.co.....rofile&friendID=116931603

GG

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theNewTerritories

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PostPosted: 08/21/2008 at 11:51 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Firstly- rlrlrl, I thank you and would like to take this opportunity to say that I have enjoyed the content and style of your many posts, even before I joined this incredible community .
Secondly, Mr. Gallo, I was unaware of the unscrupulous nature of Mr. Kramer's business model, although I assumed that his version of the aluminum neck would never have existed without Mr. Bean (or perhaps in a remote possibility without the Wandre guitars) I have never met Mr. Bean or Mr. Kramer and being suspicious of rumuor- who writes history? whose agendas, biases and personal propaganda articulate that history?-
I would just like to say that I love Travis Beans and have much respect for Mr. Bean's designs and craftsmanship. The Travis Bean Artist is the best guitar I have ever owned and played and I am grateful everyday of my life for the incredible fortune of possessing one.
As for Mr. Kramer, I enjoy his early model guitars and they have served me very well.
It is unfortunate that we live in a world that finds such enormous use for "meaningless soul-less products of plagiarism, greed, ego and deceit." and being of high moral fiber myself I am now curious to know more about the Kramer company's origins, however- I am still going to keep and play my Kramers.
Why?
I would like to share a personal annecdote with you. When I was a young boy I highly idealized and respected the (at the time) Oakland Athletics baseball player, Jose Canseco. I had a poster of him up on my bedroom wall and I held him in a high regard for his example and acheivements. He was my role model. Then, one day I discovered in horror that he had used cocaine and had sex with Madonna. I was devastated- my role model- how could he have betrayed me so. I took down the poster and grieved, whilst actively looking for a new role model.
Judging from this you can ascertain that I must be fairly young, so I will clarify by saying that I am 25 years old, almost 26.
I understand that this doesn't put me in a good position to advise or lecture my elders, but the reason I am sharing this anecdote is because, much later, when I was a teenager I attended my first baseball game.
It was the Toronto Blue Jays Vs. Baltimore Orioles and there in the outfield was my former hero- Jose Canseco. The crowd was taunting him throughout the game and he just stood there, motionless, idle and probably somehwat bored as the ball didn't come his way the entirety of the game. (excluding as a batter)
I looked down at him and thought- well, he's just a man- no better and no worse than any other man, and hey- it's not so bad that he used cocaine, as for humping Madonna--- well, whatever, it's pretty lame, but I can forgive it. And then later the whole steroids thing... well, this is just to inform my own personal decisions, but there are certain things that we have to forgive, accept, let go of- When we are young things are black and white, but as we get older the shades of grey expand and layer, revealing further complexity the likes of which we couldn't have foreseen as children.
I am not condoning unscrupulous business models at all and I must admit that I boycott many large corporations (to boycott them all and be a holier-than-thou elitist in today's urban world is impossible, but I admire attempts to do so, we are all only human, far from perfection, full of hypocrisy, and transitional, temporal shifts of emotions and rationalizations- okay, enough psuedo-philosophy)
I am not here to convince any one that Kramer's don't suck, I for one think that they do not suck, but want to be a contrary voice for those of you who are curious about these Kramer guitars, who might have possibly closed the possibility in your mind to even consider trying one due to negative comments or reviews.
I believe it was Quato who said, "Open your miiiiiiind."
Now that's a ******* role-model!

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chinesebookie

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PostPosted: 08/21/2008 at 12:00 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

ggates, looks like both of those tracks have been taken down?

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chinesebookie

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PostPosted: 08/21/2008 at 12:02 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

my mistake...those are the album names. I'll give a listen.

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rlrlrl

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PostPosted: 08/21/2008 at 8:19 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

NewTerritories, kind remarks. I think what you're getting at is the idea that we live in a pluralistic world, that above all we must respect the infinite complexity of the individual human. There's so much thought that goes into every decision and thought and feeling that can never be explained to anyone else. Each person has a system of values, and our learning about the world and about people is really the act of coming to understand the differences and similarities that we share in value systems. A book that was very influential to me on this idea, if you want to get into some semi-difficult reading, is Richard Rorty's "Contingency, Irony, Solidarity", which is one of the only books of "philosophy" that ever changed the way I actually live my life. Highly recommended, if you're not turned off by academic stuff.

How does this relate back to Travis Beans and other aluminum neck guitars? Lots of opinions get thrown around on this forum. Further, lots of opinions are expressed as though they were fact. That's a bad thing to do. For instance, if you can use a Kramer to make great music, I'd say that that's what counts for you. I've made great music on fancy expensive terrific instruments and on cheap crappy things that hardly work. We know from reading this forum that the wise Mr. Gallo thinks that the best amp he ever heard is a small Kustom practice amp, far better than his 1959 Bassman. And I've got no problem with that, and I think it's brilliant. If Kramers have no soul for him, three cheers to him for having figured that out, but it is not a fact that they have no soul for the whole world, even if some negative vibrations went into their creation. It's what we do today that counts. I'm a pluralist.

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holmes

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PostPosted: 08/22/2008 at 7:29 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

surely admin, it is awful posts like this that are the ones that should be deleted.

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rlrlrl

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PostPosted: 08/22/2008 at 8:26 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

awwww shucks holmes, a dozen white roses for me? you shouldn't have.....

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chinesebookie

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PostPosted: 08/22/2008 at 11:23 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

This is certainly a strange message board. (Feel free to delete this message.)

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theNewTerritories

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PostPosted: 08/22/2008 at 12:00 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Firstly, rlrlrl- thanks for the reading recommendation, I haven't read Rorty and in turn I would like to recommend A Thousand Plateaus (both volumes) by Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari. They are sometimes difficult to penetrate, as each sentence is loaded with an almost overwhelming amount of information, but it will reward you again and again. Also, I would like to add that I am very happy that we are on the same page, Thank you.

Secondly, Holmes- for what it is worth, I found information in rlrlrl's post to be useful. I think maybe it is also appropriate to share a story I once heard. It comes from the Nautuk people of Alaska and I think it is very open to interpretation, I for one don't know how the Nautuk themselves interpret this story, but I think it speaks of a good lesson for us here in this situation. I can't clearlt recall the beginning, but I believe it started with a raven eating some meat from a drying rack while the men were away hunting. When they returned they confronted the raven, who said, "Everybody has five toes" and when the men almost reached the raven, he jumped up, got a little knife and told the men, "Come on, let's poke each other with knives."

Thirdly, I would just like to say that I very much appreciate the posts of Mr. Gallo and agree with rlrlrl, that he is very wise. I believe that his wisdom comes from a place that few of us can access, and this perspective has alot of value to me, also his first-hand, personal experience with many aluminum-neck guitars is priceless.
I may not agree with some of his personal opinions, but I enjoy and respect his perspective. I think that disagreement and disonnance is crucial for communication and change to happen.

Now back to the guitars!
A huge reason I didn't use my EGC live and part of many reasons I am selling it, was because I was worried about the finish of the guitar. I didn't want to scratch it or tarnish it, and we all know that cleaning a guitar right after a sweaty gig where one maybe loses some personal control while in the trance of creation is a great inconvenience. I was wondering if any of you have experience with touring or gigging with shiny aluminum, or especially with Velenos. Any tips or suggestions?


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chinesebookie

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PostPosted: 08/22/2008 at 12:25 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

You won't keep a guitar b/c you are afraid of scratching it? Are you afraid of walking b/c you might trip over something? Guitars are meant to be played. Period. My other guitar looks like it's been through two world wars and three ex-wives. Worrying about scratches is part of a collector mentality that disgusts me to no end. There are plenty of musicians trying to better their playing who have hit roadblocks by playing sub par instruments since that is all that they can afford. Meanwhile, the better-playing ones are locked away in glass cases with the owner trying to raise their perceived value making even more out of reach to the musician. Truly "wisdom comes from a place that few of us can access" and it's the wrong few of us. I digress.

Here's a tip: Play your guitar. It's a new guitar. Play it. It's value lies not in what profit you can eventually make from it but in the experience you draw from playing it. One of the reason I'm interested in EGC is b/c it is NOT Vintage and I won't have to fight some hollow-headed non-playing collector for it.



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ggates

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PostPosted: 08/22/2008 at 12:58 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Could not agree with you more Bookie! I often wonder what motivates the super collector. If someone truly loves the instruments, I assume you'd also love some of the examples of the music made with the guitars. Hoarding hurts artistry and deprives us all of the music. Keeping the guitars in a warehouse or museum hurts us all.

GG

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000000

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PostPosted: 08/22/2008 at 2:13 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

-Post removed by request of the author-

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theNewTerritories

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PostPosted: 08/22/2008 at 3:06 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Hey bookie, settle down, my friend- the devil is in the details.
"part of many reasons I am selling it" For no means the main one, the main one if one was to reduce it down to one element would be my marriage.
I used the EGC for recording and it saw ALOT of use, I would just like to clarify that I am by no means a collector and thouroughly use all of the equipment I own. In the case of the EGC, I bought it without ever having tried one and due to personal reasons, feared that there was a possibility that I would have to resell, hence why I tried to keep it in good condition. I must say it does tarnish rather easily and so I tried to maintain the condition it arrived in for above stated reasons. When I play live I admit that things get out of hand and in the past I have damaged guitars- I have no qualms with gear that has been damaged and have no problem doing repairs, of a professional or a 'ghetto' variety, but for above stated reasons I didn't want to chance it wioth the EGC. Also I was curious of that was a factor for other people, especially in the case of a Veleno which costs quite a substantial amount.
If my curiosity is grounds for harsh judgements, so be it, but I remain curious none the less and appreciate insights of an educational and/or informative nature.
In conclusion, I have too much gear for the small place that I am living in, my wife does not like the fact that I own as much gear as I do and so unfortunately I must sell some off-
Why keep the Kramers over the EGC you might be thinking- well, I have had these Kramers for a long time and they have been through alot with me, too much of an emotional connection- call me a pussy all you want, nothing wrong with looking like labia.
So let it be known there is a very nice, well taken care of, cosmetically beautiful, 100% functional, incredible sounding Standard for sale that comes with a hard gator case, I hate to have to sell it and if I don't get any offers for a sustained period of time I will convince my ladyship that I tried hard to sell it and failed and go from there, but without any effort I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

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theNewTerritories

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PostPosted: 08/22/2008 at 3:15 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Just to clarify my last post-
it is an EGC Standard for sale, not a TB.
I can be contacted here:
bintoerong@gmail.com
Furthermore, I am also selling this guitar because right now, due to my situation it is going to sit in storage for a long time. That hurts me as a man. I would much rather it be in the hands of someone who will use it, it is a pity that this situation exists as it does, but alas, so is life.

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BoulderBean

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PostPosted: 08/22/2008 at 3:30 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Sheesh everyone is so touchy and sensitive. Our new friend Chinesebookie didn't write anything all that radical that he deserved to be "shushed". Sharing an opinion about the "collector mentality" is not unfriendly - unless you're an easily offended collector. I share many of his sentiments about Travis Beans - particularly that they should be played and used for the purpose they were intended. I really like his statement that the value of the instrument, "lies not in what profit you can eventually make from it, but in the experience you draw from playing it."

I understand why VG is interested in having guitars that are 100% original, but as I have noted several times in other threads, not everyone shares this concern to the same degree. I am much more interested in having an instrument that I can play day in and out and have made a few modifications to my Bean keep it in perfect playing condition.

I appreciate that everyone is trying to play nice on the forum, but I don't see anything wrong with someone expressing an honest opinion. Others should feel free to post their opinions, but let's not get on someone's case just because the expressed a strong point of view.

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ggates

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PostPosted: 08/22/2008 at 4:02 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Vincent -

You should refrain from making any suggestions as to how I view collecting or life in general. For the record I do not posess a "dark" view of collecting as you suggest. Perhaps the fact that you often play cards such as this when anyone makes a statement either about you directly or that you assume is in reference to you reveals more about your dark nature than anyone elses. Hello kettle...it's the pot.

I have no interest in controlling collector prices up or down. I have been very lucky in my recent transactions. And nothing is wrong with my black 500. I just happen to want a white one. Once I have one, I may likely sell the black one. I'd like to have a white bean family for aesthetics. I have no interest in owning all painted Beans as it appears you might.

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rlrlrl

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PostPosted: 08/22/2008 at 6:42 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

NewTerritories, two things: of course Milles Plateaux! Rorty's one of the few hardcore American philosophers whose work is neither incompatible with the French, nor a big mushy pile of nonsense. I think you'll enjoy him, especially that book. He's part of the neo-Transcendentalist school, of folks who were influenced by William James, Dewey, CS Peirce, etc. He died earlier this year, sadly.

Secondly, have you thought of having your EGC powder coated? The black matte finish looks amazing and definitely doesn't tarnish like the polished aluminum. I don't know what the process is like, if you can do this to a guitar after the fact, but it could solve your problem, and make it "like new". There's something pretty awesome about a solid black neck.... quite a different finish than the Bean's Imron, by the way.

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000000

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PostPosted: 08/22/2008 at 8:46 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

-Post removed by request of the author-

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ggates

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PostPosted: 08/22/2008 at 9:42 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

VG - "I am sorry you feel threatened by others and what they are doing with theirs lives. I am sorry of your view of collecting and passion. I am sorry you feel my collecting Travis Beans hurts us all and deprives the world of music. God bless you."


I actually don't feel the least bit threatened by you or anyone else. I am 100% certain that I did not say that I feel your collecting Travis Beans hurts or helps anyone. You assumed that I was referring to you. If I was referring to anyone specifically - I would have specifically mentioned them by name. You needn't feel sorry for me.

Thank you for the blessing Vincent. I do appreciate it.


VG- "I am sorry my love for Travis Bean guitars and my success as a collector have caused you to become so uncomfortable. Good luck and I hope you find what you are looking for"


Again, Vincent - you don't make me the least bit uncomfortable. Thank you once again for the well wishes. In fact, every time I have been looking for something, I have found it. You don't owe me any apologies, but thank you.


Enjoy your collection.


GG


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theNewTerritories

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PostPosted: 08/22/2008 at 10:18 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Hey BoulderBean,
you wrote the following:
"Sheesh everyone is so touchy and sensitive. Our new friend Chinesebookie didn't write anything all that radical that he deserved to be "shushed". Sharing an opinion about the "collector mentality" is not unfriendly - unless you're an easily offended collector. I share many of his sentiments about Travis Beans - particularly that they should be played and used for the purpose they were intended. I really like his statement that the value of the instrument, "lies not in what profit you can eventually make from it, but in the experience you draw from playing it."
I think the comment that warranted the "shushing" was Chinesebookie's opening comments, quoted below-
"You won't keep a guitar b/c you are afraid of scratching it? Are you afraid of walking b/c you might trip over something? "
Not the shared opinion about collecting mentality.
In light of the recent postings about conduct (remember when beans were fun?, etc.) I feel that Mr. Gallo's advice, quoted below
"Chinesebookie- please try to express you views with a bit more sensitivity to your fellow members. You are a new member here and I suggest you consider a more friendly view of other members opinions so we can all celebrate and enjoy our different views"
was not only appropriate but also articulated, in my own reading, as a neutral, in tone, suggestion. I for one appreciate the suggestion- as a new user may be unaware that personal attacks and 'sensitivity' have become an issue on this forum.
Personally, I don't mind personal attack- In this case, I can understand how Bookie misinterpreted my earlier post, which by my own admission was vague- and actually agree with his view that guitars should be played.

rlrlrl- I thank you for constructive suggestions and also for the exchange of information on non-Bean related philosophical texts. It feels great to have more than one interest fulfilled here at this forum and gives me a renewed faith in electronic communication and people. I must admit that I am largely ignorant of American philosophers and I am very excited to learn something new and look into the authors you have suggested.



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chinesebookie

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PostPosted: 08/23/2008 at 4:11 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

NewTerritories,

I reread what I typed and it did come off a bit harsh. The sour part of my post was directed towards collectors and the mentality of hoarding and locking away something which ought to be in the hands of those who are growing musically and creatively. The rest of my post, snide analogy included, were directed more towards to you under false pretense (thinking that you were player obsessing like a collector) and in more of an excited than negative tone although it certainly reads like the latter in hindsight. I applaud you for being graceful enough not to snap back at me. *Applause!* I certainly understand not wanting to tarnish an instrument that you may need to sell for whatever reason. You're are your gig, playing, thrashing away and in the back of your mind you are thinking about how much you're into the instrument, how much they're going for ebay, how much that new mortgage or car payment is...It sucks. Again, I'm projecting but I understand. I apologize for not reading as well as I could have. When I smell obsessive collector behaviour, I spit blood.

I still don't understand your response to my opening analogy: "Not the shared opinion about collecting mentality." I would bet that all collectors would hop a country mile on one leg and sacrifice a baby bunny each day to keep their precious treasures from even being sensing one degree of temperature change from behind their double paned displays let alone a dreaded scratch. Maybe I'm wrong. Either way, they can suck it.

This has little to do with getting an EGC in my hands. But whatever...

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chinesebookie

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PostPosted: 08/23/2008 at 6:02 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Vincent Gallo,

"Chinesebookie- please try to express you views with a bit more sensitivity to your fellow members. You are a new member here and I suggest you consider a more friendly view of other members opinions so we can all celebrate and enjoy our different views"

*Ok. Thanks. Great advice.

"the way I understood Chinesebookie's words where that he may have been a bit harsh."

*Agreed. I apologize. Not my intent.

"However I support his freedom to post any view he has. Opinions may not require such strong personal attacks."

*There was no personal attack at all, just a very direct opinion.

"In my view Chinesebookie's logic takes on the roll of the victim-starving musician, which has become a old song here."

*An old song where? To my knowledge, anyone who decides to pursue music as a full-time life pursuit is going to get used the sound of their own stomach from time to time if not forever. Charles Ives was the smartest I can think of in this respect.

"I do not share the belief that musicians are suffering at the hands of collectors. Instead I believe those with less than they wish they had can become angry."

* Well, that view fits since you are a collector and not a musician. New musicians suffer from manufacturers making sub-par instruments. The same way that a younger generation has come to accept digital harshness/loudness and Pro Tools editing, I doubt most of them know what a good instrument sounds like. Everyone else has to trudge through the collector-infested vintage market or find new boutique guitar makers. To say collectors aren't hurting musicians is totally incorrect.

"A thoughtful musician need not a vintage guitar but collecting guitars does not reduce someone musically and many of the most famous guitar hero's were fanatic collectors. most were"

*I can hardly blame a "guitar hero" for buying up guitars. They spend their lives practicing and trying to do something with their art/craft. Of course they are going to buy a bunch of guitars with their first check with the mindset that "When the money inevitably runs out I'll still have some guitars that I can play. Surely, the tax man can't all of them away."

Collectors are different. They often can't play a note and are rarely even seen touching a guitar. They know almost as much as the craftsman if not more about the history but aren't inspired enough to build one themselves. Besides, it's too costly to do well. The only finger that fits the dike keeping their river of their insecurity from bursting is the one which hoards and protects all of those precious instruments from being played by others; those who would take the time and effort to learn and grow with them. It's also part of an out of control wave of inflated value of these instruments; a perceived value that ought not be more much more than it cost to manufacture, distribute and turn a profit with the instrument.


"There are millions of guitars in the world and plenty to go around. A musician today has a much easier time having access to quality instruments than I did as a young man."

*This is false. Walk into Guitar Center Hollywood. Try any guitar in the main room, any of the affordable guitars, affordable by someone who isn't a millionaire. Some of them may play ok but none sound very good. This is the trend more and more now: cheaply made, bad-sounding instruments. No wonder people become DJ and "Producers". The guitars in the back room, the quality instruments, are literally and financially out of reach to most. Think about what guitars were new on the rack 30 or 40 years ago. *

Anyway great guitar player sounds good on any guitar.
*True. How many great players do you hear playing sub-par guitars? Not many. How many good players would enhance their playing and take it to the next level with a great guitar? Probably most of them.

"Collectors bring interest respect and insight to certain objects."

*True since people seem to respect money above all. You've certainly brought something to the table.

"Collecting and collectors are not in the way of creativity but instead may enhance creativity."

*How? They make prices soar and instruments even further from the reach from the non-millionaire practicing musician.

"Sometimes however collectors may reflect jealousy and anger in others."

*From non-collectors, its more like disgust for obvious reasons.

"For the record, during the hay day of my guitar collecting I was earning less than $12,000 a year."

*What decade was this? How much was a 60's Jazzmaster back then?

"Collecting was done so with persistence and sacrifice."

*Really? Guitars didn't just fall out of the sky?

"Be considerate here on this board as it basically serves, as a forum of specialty, which is a form of collecting in general."

*It serves you as a collector.

"We are all collectors on some level if we show up here so stop judging the guys who have more luck than you."

* Speak for yourself. I'm here to learn about an affordable aluminum guitar so that I can play one. You can have your "good luck". I don't want or need it.

"Lets not judge those who own more than one as there will always be plenty to go around to those who really really want one. collecting is generational and soon younger guys will not give a shit anyway."

*There aren't plenty to go around. People like you are hoarding them and raising the price intentionally. Younger people like myself do give a shit that you're making a great guitar a museum piece like so many others.

This is me, celebrating and enjoying my view and avoiding the collector bullshit game altogether by looking into an EGC.


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theNewTerritories

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PostPosted: 08/23/2008 at 8:17 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Hi Chinesebookie,
thanks for the apology, it is very kind of you and much appreciated- drop me a line if you want the standard I have up for sale-
bintoerong@gmail.com

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000000

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PostPosted: 08/24/2008 at 4:36 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

-Post removed by request of the author-

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jonsau

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Posts: 8
PostPosted: 08/25/2008 at 5:04 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

yo chinesebookie

i think you are hollering for no reason. if you want a bean, go buy one. i have owned over 12 beans, including 2 wedge guitars and a wedge bass. i never paid more that 1800$ for one...sure the prices are going up, but what can u do about that? they rule! you cant expect for peeps to let you get a bean for cheap is someone is gonna pay them more money. you make the sacrafice, make the purchase...if you want one. i also own 4 EGC's and they rule. kevin rules the hardest and he works his ass off daily to put some quality shit out there. Or go buy a refinshed bean if you want it cheaper. i am a player, not a collector, though i find myself collecting these days.

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chinesebookie

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PostPosted: 08/25/2008 at 6:58 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

jonsau,

I'm interested in a guitar with an aluminum neck, TB or EGC, leaning toward EGC. My "hollering" has little to do TB collectors specifically but the guitar and greater instrument collector world at large. I find it baffling that the anyone can hold the view that the collector world hasn't negatively affected the world of players of all skill levels and financial backgrounds unless that person is a collector themselves and deluding themselves.

I think that you have simplified the idea of instrument value a bit. Of course, I'd sell my guitar to the highest bidder or the person that actually desired to play it the most for a fraction less (maybe you've noticed some ads that specifically state that they won't sell to collectors). Attempting to buy up all known models of a guitar in an attempt to control and set the price for that model is a different story.

Wow, 4 EGCs!? Do you mind describing them a bit? Very curious.

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chinesebookie

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PostPosted: 08/25/2008 at 7:16 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

And for the record, I'd pay $1800 for a TB in any playable condition. I think I put more than that in just mods into my last guitar.

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gse1

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Posts: 27
PostPosted: 08/26/2008 at 1:30 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Chinesebookie, Have you thought about building your own (theres no chance in hell im going to write 'lumie') aluminium neck guitar or buying just a neck from either kevin (egc) or Greg bailey. Even see what Matt at Bastin can do for you. Making a body is dead easy and cheap. I built a copy of a 500 from scratch. I bought the p 90s from kevin ( i think they were 70 dollars each). At a later time i checked with Kevin at EGC to see what just a neck would cost. from memory i think he said it would be around $450. If these figures are still valid you could easily build one for less than a grand
cheers

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chinesebookie

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PostPosted: 08/26/2008 at 12:26 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

In response to "Vincent Gallo" (?),

"Dear Chinesebookie,
I would like to share mutual respect and move past this conflict."
*You mean, "Instead of answering you directly at the risk of seeming harsh, I'll respond in a seemly calm manner but with backhanded insults."

"I am not looking for any further arguments and I hesitate to even reply to your last post, however since this is an ongoing dilemma here, let me for the last time speak on this issue as in the future I will no longer be open for this type of debate."
*Well thanks for the speaking but I was not looking for your opinion anyway. You butted in. I didn't know you were a collector. I'm just here looking for opinions on the EGC, misread a comment about a guy not wanting to scratch his guitar and regretfully gave my 2 cents about collectors/hoarders like yourself.

"I'm 46 years old, which means I was born in 1962. Since I began playing in 1971, let me paint the picture of what the Buffalo, NY musical instrument scene was like. Maybe a total of 10 people out of the 750,000 population owned a Gibson guitar and another 10 a Fender."
*My math is just fine, thanks. So, you were a census taker? Fender and Gibson sold a combined 20 guitars in Buffalo? You should have sold them that info.

"A flashy guitar then was a Teisco."
*They are still flashy. Funny that you mention Teisco, I own a Teisco amp and it has played and sounded pretty good since the day my dad found it in a barn years ago. It certainly gave me an appreciation for the sound of tube amps early on. I had a Teisco guitar as well. It was tough to play but I discovered a dozen more tones that anyone buying a new Ibanez at the time (like '91 or so).

"The cost of a new Travis Bean when I was 16 years old was equal to three months of my paychecks, as I was a construction worker at that point and soon began working in a music shop."
*I'm lost. I don't know how much you were making. Not very clear. I know that I couldn't save $8,000 in three months at my last job with my overhead.

"Today a busboy with one week's salary could purchase a playable instrument."
*You still work for the census...?

"For that matter, music today should be more connected with the contemporary instruments being produced today."
They are. Turn on the radio. FM. Mostly crap.

"That's what made the sounds of the 60's and 70's so exciting. Musicians were experimenting with new products while they were experimenting with new vocabulary."
*I agree; a new vocabulary made possible by the new quality products of that era. Where were the collectors back then? Now, the new vocabulary simply relies on digital editing, extreme compression/limiting and a million other shortcut or pro-sumer products. Amongst these are guitars made by major manufacturers.

"Your righteous words may reflect more your own personal sadness and frustrations as you are caught up so deeply in the behavior of others."
*My last fortune cookie exactly! Your projection is so far off. Honestly, I don't care what you do, but you are a collector, something I abhor always.

"I suggest you focus on your love of music and don't cloud it with your judgment of others."
*Guru Gallo, We both know that instruments were made better back then. Manufactures weren't so quick to churn out cheaply-made fad guitars and amps as they are today while feigning quality and craftsmanship. Again, walking into GC or look at a Musician's Friend catalog if you can be bothered.

"The way you paint the picture, there is a pool of outstanding musicians being oppressed by lack of instruments. That skew is just one small way of looking at it. Try another view please."
*I'm not painting it this way at all, straw man. I'm saying that there are plenty of decent players whose knowledge and ability would be expanded vastly with access to better instruments unbeknownst to probably even them. if you were a decent player, you'd know that. Maybe you are and you do. I dunno...

"30 or 40 years ago young people like myself had very little access to purchasing power in the economy."
*But you worked, like 10 jobs, right?

"As well the ratio of cost for a name brand guitar was much more expensive than today."
*Again, false. The quality has gone down with the price if the price has gone down at all. The quality has gone down way further actually.

"Enter the Guitar Center vintage room and you may see a $30,000 Strat, but you'll also see several guitars in that same room that play and sound great for under $3,000. Anyone who can't eventually save up $3,000 for a guitar that they plan to play everyday may not be working hard enough."
*When you were going door to door with the census, did you notice anyone with children, maybe diplomas on the wall, cars in the driveway?

"Many of the most famous guitar players in history played bargain brand guitars and most of them at least learned on them."
*...and then expanded their knowledge and ability with better or even the best-playing instruments like I said above, often direct from the instrument makers themselves.

"When you start making music that really reaches people and they welcome paying to see you perform live you will certainly have access to any guitar you want."
*Thats not always the way it happens. Rock stars haggle for guitars also. They also accept endorsement deals with some bad brands...and then don't actually use that gear. Younger players buy that and wonder why they can't get the same sound no matter how much they woodshed.

"I never wanted a Jazzmaster, but a 60's one could be had even today for $5K and less for one with a changed finish which does not change the sound. Surely $5K is a lot of money but not unreachable by any hard-working man."
*More projection. You should have taken over for Greenspan a couple years back. You've got so much "insight". Maybe there is room for you in McCain's cabinet.

"I worked hard and sacrificed all other comforts. You should try it."
*What happened to you wanting to "share mutual respect"? My comments are very direct and at times a bit sarcastic. That's how I am. Your tone is incredibly pompous and posts riddled with backhanded insults. That's probably how you are, only I'm not asking you not to be that way. I'm actually enjoying it.

"I am here to offer insight and share interest. I hope you come here one day for the same purpose."
*(insert tragic romance theme) I have an interest in aluminum guitars. My only option seems to be the EGC, by all accounts a great guitar, since people like you have made buying TBs near impossible for most. This is me offering insight and sharing my interest. *sigh*

"I dare you to express one opinion that doesn't contain a criticism of someone else. For example, "this is what I like." Instead of, "this is what I like not like those assholes who like something different." Lighten up, have fun, play music, try not to let the actions of others make you so uncomfortable."

*I dare you to do the same. Reread your responses. "Those assholes who like something different" are collectors/investors who have no interest in music, only making money thereby putting quality instruments further out of reach for musicians as I've stated several hundred times. You would defend them since you are one. You are deluding yourself. I'm already having fun. Thanks for reminding me.

"I have been playing music since the age of 9."
*So has everyone else.

"I prefer to avoid a pissing match but a brief list of musicians who I have been band mates with includes Jean Michel Basquiat, John Frusciante, Yoko Ono, Sean Lennon, and PJ Harvey. In addition I have released three LPs on the prestigious British label Warp Records and have written and performed music for my successful feature films. I forgot which band you were in again. Please remind me."

*Which one was the successful one? The one with the hummer? If there was any doubt that this was VG....Not pissing exactly...I hope you had a napkin or tissue to catch it with. This list is mostly celebrities and artists. There's a combined total of maybe two musicians and I haven't noticed your name on their albums. Maybe you consider selling them guitars being band mates. You are on Warp b/c you are a cult celebrity; a name that yields sales via curious following. Good for you. Keep milking it. As for myself, I've been in loads of bands no one has ever heard of and played with oodles of diversely talented musicians in almost every type of musical situation in cities all over the world that I can't ever pronouce. Like myself, almost none of the musicians I've played with have ever been aspiring celebrities. I've got albums in stores that I've worked on and music on TV. None of it is even worth mentioning. My own music exists in the small, unprofitable world apart from this. Not everyone wants to be famous, you know. Some people are fine with being anonymous in their pursuits or simply not bragging constantly. Some people even do "work for hire" to pay the bills. Some people don't care if anyone notices. Some people even enjoy it for themselves.

Seriously, get over yourself, dude. And don't answer my posts like a jerk and not expect to be answered.

"I wish you peace."
Awesome. Thanks. Likewise I guess...

Anyone ELSE have an EGC in LA?

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chinesebookie

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PostPosted: 08/26/2008 at 12:39 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

gse1,

this is a great suggestion. I'm sure I'd learn a ton by doing this as well. If I get the time, I may just pursue this.
I never would have thought to do that. I don't mind paying full price for an EGC but this way could be a lot of fun.

thanks

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BoulderBean

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Posts: 309
PostPosted: 08/26/2008 at 12:48 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

chinesebookie - you rock. Your posts have been polite, brutally sarcastic, and right-between-the-eyes on target. If you're ever in Boulder you're welcome to play my Bean 1000S and EGC.

An $1,800 Bean is unlikely, but maybe not impossible (I could be delusional however). It won't be in mint condition, that's for sure. You would probably have to find it locally as any Bean that makes it to E-Bay will probably sell for a lot more.

Thanks for joining our happy little on-line Travis Bean world. Cheers!

Peter

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000000

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PostPosted: 08/26/2008 at 12:58 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

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Peter Doran

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Posts: 8
PostPosted: 08/26/2008 at 11:54 PM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Chinesebookie,

You appear to have some sort of an emotional imbalance that propels you towards relentless negativity. You also seem to be working through that imbalance right here on the forum. Whether you like him or not (and I am guessing by your comments regarding his films you are not a fan) Gallo's creative work has been widely praised all around the world. In addition to making great films and playing interesting music, he's funny, insightful and interesting-very often right here on this forum. I get the feeling that some people misunderstand his humor and him for that matter. Did you ever hear him on Howard Stern? It's seriously one of the funniest guest appearances I've ever heard on the show and I've been a listener for a long time. They play it all the time as one of the "best of" series that they are always playing.

Anyway, Mr. Gallo's knowledge and experience with Travis Bean guitars is very welcome on this forum-I mean, let's not lose sight of things, that is the purpose of this place after all-to share insight into Travis Bean guitars. Clearly Gallo is an obsessive person. He's hardworking and dedicated to what he does. Like most obsessive and fanatical creative people, Mr. Gallo tends to reveal symptoms of these obsessions and like others who possess a maniacal desire to create his obsessive nature contains a drive to collect things. That drive to collect in no way negates or disqualifies his creativity, nor does it punish or oppress those around him. Mr. Gallo has most likely brought more excitement and insight and created more music using a Travis Bean guitar than you will ever do with any instrument in your lifetime.

I am speaking up here in defense of Gallo mostly because I feel like you are suggesting that he has somehow tried hard to become successful rather than tried hard to do the best work he can possibly do. What I know about him from what I've read here and in interviews makes me think the opposite is true. He thinks, talks, and writes like an outsider, like someone who bases his actions not on how they will play in the court of public opinion but rather on how they fit into his own personal grand scheme.

I know you are a newcomer and you're free to post whatever you want within reason, but I do find it disturbing that you have become so outspoken so quickly and in such an unproductive way. I welcome you as a new member and hope you can develop respect for those who think, act and live differently than you do, especially when those people are so obviously passionate about the things they do.



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charlie

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Posts: 250
PostPosted: 08/27/2008 at 12:41 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

OK I'm cringing now.

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chinesebookie

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PostPosted: 08/27/2008 at 10:45 AM    Post subject: RE:New to the world of aluminum necks link

Thank you, Boulder. If I am ever in the area I'll certainly hit you up.

I think I'll keep my inquiries on a more technical level from here on out.

VG, you made some points as well and I really appreciate your preference for all original/no mods while allowing for some playing wear. I often find an instrument that has been played a good deal feels better to for myself to play.

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