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    by toby2



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Forum :: General Discussion

Veleno information - help !


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toby2

Joined:
04 Mar 2008
Posts: 10
PostPosted: 04/20/2008 at 6:21 PM    Post subject: Veleno information - help ! link

Hi
I have the chance to purchase what is supposed to be a Veleno guitar . There are a
couple of strange things about it that make me think it is a copy . 1) Nothing ingraved
on the back of the headstock . 2) No string tree . 3) This is the worst part . The original neck
slots were cut in the wrong position ( from the 2nd to the 15th fret , you can see the first
slots that were cut ) . The neck was recut and the frets are now in the proper postion . 4)
Some fretboard markers were installed in a sloppy manner -
This is a weird instrument and I am not sure if I should be posting about it in this forum .
Are there any Veleno experts out there that could give me some information about this
guitar ? It was purchased on ebay a few years ago from Rockhaus guitars .
Thank you !!

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Kevin

Joined:
16 Mar 2007
Posts: 147
PostPosted: 04/21/2008 at 6:18 AM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

Where did you get the guitar from? Velenos didnt come with string trees all the time. All Ive seen have something engraved. As for the frets...if it looks like a mistake was made then it might just be that and I doubt it was ever "sold" like that. Ive seen some strange things on Velenos, but his quality was much higher than that. If you open the guitar up and take some pictures I can tell you if its real or not. The tool paths are very telling inside of these guitars. I hoping you didnt pay high for it in its condition.



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Kevin

Joined:
16 Mar 2007
Posts: 147
PostPosted: 04/21/2008 at 6:56 AM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

Opps I see you didnt buy it yet. Sorry. Really anything around 3k isnt bad for an all metal guitar.

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toby2

Joined:
04 Mar 2008
Posts: 10
PostPosted: 04/21/2008 at 4:36 PM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

I had the chance to take some photos of the guitar today . The electronics are all modern
parts . Here is a link to the photos :
http://s290.photobucket.c...../tobywalterscott/?start=0
Any information would be greatly appreciated !
Thanks



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Kevin

Joined:
16 Mar 2007
Posts: 147
PostPosted: 04/21/2008 at 6:35 PM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

Well,

The neck looks to be cast and thats a good sign. The body looks to be correct. It is one of the later thinner bodies. The neck looks chewed up on one side and the fret slots look to be just as off as the dots. If I had to guess, Id say the neck was more or less scrapped but finished. I have seen necks with solid headstocks but all have had something written on them. No big deal with the lack of string tree though.

According to the book "Strange Guitar Stories Volume 2", Velenos son Chris(I believe) made a few guitars after Veleno stopped as well as gave permission to a fellow to try and make guitars. Perhaps this neck was the try. Dunno though, its strange.

If it plays well then get it, but as a collectors pc Id pass on it.



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toby2

Joined:
04 Mar 2008
Posts: 10
PostPosted: 04/21/2008 at 6:52 PM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

Thanks Kevin ! Someone said that it may have been a scrap neck that was lying around
the shop . Maybe his son just slapped it together and sold it cheap ? The guitar plays
fine and sounds good but the screwed up fretboard really bothers me . I have no idea how
that could be repaired ( or if it even could be ) .
Did you see the numbers that were etched into the neck and body ( #186 ) . Did Veleno
do that sort of thing ?
Thanks again for all of that helpful information !

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Kevin

Joined:
16 Mar 2007
Posts: 147
PostPosted: 04/21/2008 at 7:25 PM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

His son was helping him from the start so i doubt he would have messed up on a neck like that, there is no real way to fix it though. Almag 535 is hard, but not impossible, to weld as its flammable. Almag is aluminum magnesium so you play this game of melting the aluminum without igniting the magnesium.

Anyways the numbers are generally stamped or etched into the front of the neck joint. As for inside, I dont know. They generally had some form of an X then number in them. It had nothing to do with the serial number as far as I know.

Theres no real way to tell what it is, but you can be certain it wasnt assembled and sold as new like that. Id back the idea it was scrap and instead of trashing it, it was put together as its still playable. Cool find though, congrats.

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000000

Joined:
03 May 2007
Posts: 324
PostPosted: 04/21/2008 at 10:45 PM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

-Post removed by request of the author-

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waystolive

Joined:
02 Jun 2008
Posts: 10
PostPosted: 06/02/2008 at 9:57 PM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

Sorry to disagree with you Vincent,
however in this instance I do not believe you are 100% correct.
I also have owned a number of Velenos over the years, and this appears to be one of the ones made from original parts, therefore largely it is in fact an original Veleno.
There are a number of production changes over the history of veleno, and this is one of the last.
I agree it has un-original tailpiece, pickups, surrounds, witre, pots tuners etc, but both the body and neck are original parts, that were un-assembled last run original Veleno parts.
I believe there are a few out there up to 5 or so I think.
I think a number of years back rockhaus came across a stock of original parts (bodies and necks)and assembled them.
This is one where the neck had been mis-cut for it's frets, not sure whether that was original mistake or done later (possibly a miscalculation of scale length).
However I reitterate that both the neck and body are original Veleno as far as I am aware.
Veleno never used standardised parts or hardware anyway, pickups, surrounds, pots, bridges, etc were often aftermarket back in the 70's, ie not veleno made,but gibson, guild, etc, so it is largely the body and neck that hold the value and originality in these instruments, the bridge and tailpiece however were however also usually veleno made products.
There would be no way real way to tell parts original to a veleno like the pickups and wiring harness, in a 70's veleno, if they had been replaced with original 70's parts.
Original body & neck, assembled later.

Cheers



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000000

Joined:
03 May 2007
Posts: 324
PostPosted: 06/02/2008 at 10:51 PM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

-Post removed by request of the author-

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waystolive

Joined:
02 Jun 2008
Posts: 10
PostPosted: 06/03/2008 at 8:44 AM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

I was under the impression these forums were available for open discussion.
I was not aware that "chiming in" with an opinion was such a crime.
And If Vincent bothered to read posts before responding to them,
then perhaps there would be freer access to more open and honest information on this website.

I never suggested that the guitar was assembled by Veleno or any member of his family,
I simply stated that it was my opinion that the neck and body originated from Veleno production.
It appears that the neck at least is agreed upon as an original (albeit unfinished/abandonded) part.
I also stated that all hardware appears to be aftermarket, and the assembly is likely to be relatively recent,
all of which has been agreed on.

I am in no way affiliated with this particular guitar and have no interest in it's sale.
I simply wished to offer my own experience and opinion on this piece.
I presently do believe that the body is likely to be original, until further evidence comes to light.
I have had the chance to examine a similar body and found the routing work on it to be remarkably similar to original Veleno workmanship.
Which led me to believe that this body and others like it are original late production pieces unfinished at the factory.
This is based on personal experience, and I understand that Mr Gallo may have a different opinion.

I never claimed anything about my knowledge, just that I had owned several Velenos.
Which is no more claim to the truth than that of Mr Gallo.

I was simply trying to help, obviously Mr Gallo has a vested interest in his own investments,
and will go to any lengths to discredit anything that doesn't fit with his sanitized view of history,
despite having no evidence and the fact that we were largely agreeing with our conclusions.

A little respect Mr Gallo.

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000000

Joined:
03 May 2007
Posts: 324
PostPosted: 06/03/2008 at 12:06 PM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

-Post removed by request of the author-

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rlrlrl

Joined:
24 Dec 2007
Posts: 260
PostPosted: 06/03/2008 at 1:23 PM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

I don't believe that using one's real name has anything to do with courage. The concept of anonymity has always be integral to the foundations of the internet, and everyone is free to take it or leave it as they choose to.

About the Velenos, they do raise some interesting philosophical questions about the nature of authenticity. Vincent, I don't doubt what you say about the necks and bodies that were assembled after the fact. But what makes a "real Veleno"? We know that Fender used whatever parts they had lying around, and they were a functioning corporate entity. I have a killer Fender amp that, according to the books, shouldn't exist at all in that configuration. But it does. Who's to say where the mojo comes from? It comes as much from the player as it does from the builder. This is not a criticism, as I have no experience to say anything about the guitar in questions.

But this is almost like saying that an instrument built by a Travis Bean employee for himself to keep and play is not a real Bean, if it differs somehow from the stock instrument. In my little experiment, say this Bean was actually assembled by this employee at his home workshop instead of at the Bean factory... but in 1975 when the company was still going strong. Is it a real Bean? Of course it is. I mean really, Travis Bean wasn't even a guitar player. I guess they're not even real guitars ;)

The point is that we all have different things that are important to us in these instruments. And those are the individual things that lead us to decide how much money we will pay for any particular instrument. Vincent Gallo seems to believe that anyone who does not share his system of values and evaluations is flat out wrong. There's no such thing as flat out wrong. Of course, that's just like my opinion, man.

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000000

Joined:
03 May 2007
Posts: 324
PostPosted: 06/03/2008 at 2:20 PM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

-Post removed by request of the author-

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rlrlrl

Joined:
24 Dec 2007
Posts: 260
PostPosted: 06/03/2008 at 2:31 PM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

I hope at least a few other forum members find this as funny as I do.

And: I'm not looking for some excuse to talk with you. I honestly thought that what I wrote was an interesting topic. It had nothing to do with you. Reread my post and see that I was interested and neutral on your opinion. Please don't answer me unless you're contributing something useful and interesting to this discussion. I would be interested to see if other forum members might disregard your last post, and actually tell me what they think on the issues of authenticity and musical instruments. Everyone's opinion is equally valid here, and there are no right or wrong answers. You can't bash a relativist, it just doesn't work.

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waystolive

Joined:
02 Jun 2008
Posts: 10
PostPosted: 06/03/2008 at 5:34 PM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

Hi,

Again I would like to reiterate that I never stated that the "Veleno" in question was assembled by John Veleno or any of his family, factory etc etc.
Vincent keeps suggesting that I am trying to mislead people to believe that this is a "Real" Veleno.
I have only ever stated my opinion that the neck and body (unfinished) originated from a veleno source.
Of course I don't believe this veleno is an original 1970's production guitar, I don't think anyone has suggested that it is!
I'm happy to change my opinions given evidence and information, I am not dogmatic about these things.
Even Vincent seems to be unsure whether the neck was a rejected original casting, or one created at a later date from the original moulds. And has no idea where the body came from.

But I have to agree that the definitions as to what makes a "Real" "Veleno" and what is "Valued" in a guitar are up for debate and opinion.
Sure this guitar is never going to be worth what a 1972 veleno is worth, but that is not the point. Although that purely depends on what people will pay for things.

I think the point about History is well made, we do have very little history about Velenos, and covering up anomolies like this guitar only serves to sanitize and erradicate some of that history.

Mr Gallo also stated (without any evidence or knowledge) I had sold my Velenos, (not that it is any of his business) but for the record I do still own Velenos and Beans and Wandres, Fenders, Gibson, etc etc.

I prefer to keep using a nickname, I don't need the publicity.
I don't think telling anyone that my name is Daniel will change my opinion or it's validity.

I never tried to start a war, just giving some other opinions.
Just trying to help out, but don't want to be slandered or discredited without evidence either.

There's no need to get defensive or argumentative, or personal for that matter.
Guys it's just a public forum!!!

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000000

Joined:
03 May 2007
Posts: 324
PostPosted: 06/03/2008 at 7:47 PM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

-Post removed by request of the author-

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charlie

Joined:
06 Jan 2008
Posts: 250
PostPosted: 06/03/2008 at 10:40 PM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

As was so eloquently stated above: "YAWN"

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000000

Joined:
03 May 2007
Posts: 324
PostPosted: 06/03/2008 at 11:02 PM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

-Post removed by request of the author-

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waystolive

Joined:
02 Jun 2008
Posts: 10
PostPosted: 06/03/2008 at 11:35 PM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

oh there goes vinsent galow again acting tuff too.

And now for the information...

As a note of interest, a number of years ago now, prior to John Veleno's son re-starting the Veleno business, my brother and I had number of lengthy discussions with John Veleno via email.
Mr John Veleno was a lovely man to deal with, he was very very open with information and advice, detailing how he made his guitars and even how he cast and finished his necks etc, my impression was that he was not at all precious or protective about his instruments and the use of his "name".
He seemed excited by the interest in his instruments and the fact that people loved them so much.
It wasn't until his son started the business up that there was suddenly so much controversy over the veleno "name".
I know for a fact that Mr Veleno gave his personal permission to people to assemble or "complete" old "original" veleno parts into fully functional guitars, even to the extent of using his name and offerring to sign headstock plates. And even rumors of a series of complete remakes authorised by John.
We were discussing the possiblity of re-issuing his guitars at the time, when his son decided to go with it. I never heard back from John after that.

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toby2

Joined:
04 Mar 2008
Posts: 10
PostPosted: 06/09/2008 at 9:31 PM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

Thanks for all of the information ! It is an odd bird .

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toby2

Joined:
04 Mar 2008
Posts: 10
PostPosted: 05/02/2019 at 9:00 PM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

Too bad the Vincent Gallo posts were removed . It was a thing of beauty .

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artwar

Joined:
08 Apr 2015
Posts: 29
PostPosted: 05/15/2019 at 8:15 AM    Post subject: RE:Veleno information - help ! link

I agree, Vincent Gallo was the most interesting member on this site and his posts funny thoughtful and very very informative.

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